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Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

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Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#131

Post by O__________O »

alexb_ wrote: post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

My understanding is that much like tracing blockchain transactions, cash is much easier to trace for governments than most people realize.

For example, it is my understanding, most banks and ATMs scan serial numbers when receiving or distributing cash; oddly, banks will not give you itemized list of serial numbers of the bills they distributed, which would be useful in cash seizures. Also my understanding that most cash withdrawals are spent with vendor that deposits the larger bills back on receipt and do not recycle them back into circulation. As such, not sure what percentage of cash transactions are traceable, but not an insignificant percentage and per person, given largest enough cash flow, would be very hard to stay anonymous; which is not even account for tracing asset flows themselves related to the transactions.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#132

Post by NegativeK »

soupfordummies wrote: post #126
alexb_ wrote: post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

I don't understand how it's legal for vendors to actually refuse cash. I get it that there's multiple reasons they wouldn't want to and they can say it's their policy, etc but it's on the paper money itself "LEGAL tender for ALL debts public and PRIVATE". It's like when you hear the stories about people paying debts with buckets of coins. Obviously a huge PitA but technically allowed.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

> Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

That taco shop that doesn't want to deal with cash isn't a creditor.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#133

Post by tenebrisalietum »

t-3 wrote: post #29
aliqot wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some blockchains are 100% traceable.

Got examples? I can't see how an untraceable blockchain could still be considered a blockchain (or what use it would be). Isn't the whole point to be perfectly traceable?

I think I got the below right, correct me if wrong:

What's stored in the blockchain that makes it work are public keys, and how you can talk to nodes who can append to the blockchain have to work over a network. You can always walk the whole chain at any time and account for all the activity of all public keys, and that is actually required because it's the primary way that the network knows "who" has what.

So what connects the public key to a person?

If:

- private keys are never in the hands of a third party (public keys don't matter), and

- transaction processors/miners are only available over secure channels that somehow dissociate the involved keys from loggable networky things like IP address, and

- information like IP address is not stored in the blockchain,

then a blockchain would be untraceable to anyone who does not have a complete view of all Internet activity between all the participants.

Anyone with your private keys (which you can make more up any time you want) could transact under those keys as long as they can talk to enough processors/miners through any transport method, and alter "your" stuff, that's why you guard those with your life.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#134

Post by blantonl »

helf wrote: post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

You uncover a single entity in a public ledger and it's like pulling a thread that opens up a gold mine.

The ledger as a permanent history available to the world, in real time, of every single transaction.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#135

Post by seanw444 »

breck wrote: post #110
helf wrote: post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

This is really concerning. How are people going to use blockchain to do nefarious things if it's easier to track?

How are people going to do moral things against an immoral enforcer when the enforcer becomes immoral, if we assume all are too immoral to have the right to privacy?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#136

Post by KirillPanov »

Test0129 wrote: post #129
codyb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's illegal in NYC to not accept cash and I fully support that. There are a lot of unbanked people here that have enough on their plates without further discrimination. And also cash is king and coins and bills are very neat.

> There are a lot of unbanked people here Would you support removing cash if everyone was given a bank account? Perhaps with the government? OPs point was that cash not being accepted means you have no privacy in a place you might want it. Governments love credit cards, easy pay, etc. Especially in the case where your transactions are kept with you forever so that future governments can punish you.

> Would you support removing cash if everyone was given a bank account

... that couldn't be closed, limited, frozen, or surveilled?

Sure!

But otherwise, not a chance.

Giving somebody "a bank account" is just giving them a pretty piece of paper. All the useful properties of that pretty piece of paper are revocable at a whim.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#137

Post by blantonl »

alexb_ wrote: post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

Cash is definitely not untraceable.

There are literally serial numbers on every bill printed in the United States.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#138

Post by cowtools »

nimbius wrote: post #84
SevenNation wrote: post #41

That's because when most people use "blockchain" or "DeFi" they're using AML/KYC entities that post their transaction logs to public servers. Law enforcement eats this up because it saves them the trouble of getting warrants for investigations. Bad for customers to be sure. Most have no idea what they're doing and have fallen for a scam hook, line, and sinker. They (loudly, incessantly) proclaim to their friends the…

The whole article is a plug for Chainalysis, a company that sells its ability to trace crypto transactions to the US government who ironically gave them KYC, the most fundamental and lazy ability to start a business that traces stuff like this. What I'd like to see Grigg admit to with a straight face is his companies ability to trace monero. his company got the US Government bid for a $625,000 bounty to trace it, and…

I suspect chainalysis is describing some "poisoned output attack" with respect to monero. See: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iABIcsDJKyM

The problem is a well-understood but innate limitation to all sender-obfuscating cryptocurrencies.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#140

Post by cr1895 »

soupfordummies wrote: post #126
alexb_ wrote: post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

I don't understand how it's legal for vendors to actually refuse cash. I get it that there's multiple reasons they wouldn't want to and they can say it's their policy, etc but it's on the paper money itself "LEGAL tender for ALL debts public and PRIVATE". It's like when you hear the stories about people paying debts with buckets of coins. Obviously a huge PitA but technically allowed.

Buying something at a shop or paying for a service is not repayment of a debt. There’s no precondition of accepting cash.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103

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