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If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

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Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#31

Post by jvandonsel »

kruuuder wrote: post #9
NobodyNada wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There definitely can be instrument-specific differences though, even under equal temperment. For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys; and on stringed instruments, some keys lend themselves to voicings containg more open strings, which AFAIK leads to a brighter/fuller sound (though I don't play stringed instruments, so don't quote me on that). There's also the practical ma…

I agree to everything you have written, except > the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys I never noticed that and it doesn't seem plausible to me. The mechanics of black and white keys are identical, no?

The do have a shorter lever arm.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#32

Post by goto11 »

bloak wrote: post #21
goto11 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't equal temperament only possible for some instruments?

A bugle can't do equal temperament, so yes, but are there any standard orchestral instruments that can't be made to do equal temperament? Obviously a string quartet doesn't normally play equal temperament, but they could if they wanted to, I think, if we ignore the playing of harmonics, which is a fairly unusual technique.

> Obviously a string quartet doesn't normally play equal temperament

This seem to refute the assertion by arxanas that "all keys sound the same (unless you have perfect pitch)".

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#33

Post by todd8 »

atoav wrote: post #15
kangalioo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

I don't have perfect pitch, but I play a fretless instrument and this means I can hear the distances and relations between notes very clearly. I still however feel drawn to certain frequencies even without reference or other instrument playing and those frequencies I am drawn to are actual notes. I know 440 Hz is somewhat arbitrary sure, but 99% of the music we hear is somewhat referenced to it. To me there is certai…

We grow up hearing “tuned” musical notes. It’s possible we learn these familiar frequencies so that at least some of us can tell the difference as you do. I’m not sure I could.

Experiments on the development of the visual system in cats revealed that seeing only vertical edges and not horizontal edges while kittens made their perceptions of horizontal edges as adults less sensitive. I suppose that there is similar development of sensitivity to a certain frequencies in humans.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#34

Post by troupe »

jefftk wrote: post #27
acadapter wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment was about historical tunings with unequal spacing between each note, optimized for perfect ratios between certain notes. This has a drawback of being quite incompatible with some transpositions. Modern tuning with 12-TET is not perfect, but good enough, and doesn't yield very dramatic differences when transposed.

> doesn't yield very dramatic differences when transposed What differences are you thinking it does yield when transposed?

If you use perfect tuning the 5ths are a slightly larger interval than the way modern instruments are tuned. If you were to tune a piano to perfect tuning based on the key of C, the key of G would be slightly higher than what we hear today. The leading tone back to C would be slightly higher and "lean into" C a bit more. But if you decided to try to play in a distantly related key (say C# or something like that) the spacing between the notes would be so far off that you'd probably need to retune the piano.

Bach wrote the Well Tempered Clavier with a fugue and prelude in every major and minor key. It was a celebration of tempered tuning which meant you could play in every key without needing to retune the instrument when switching to play a piece in a different key.

Put simply, well tempered tuning means that if you walk up the circle of 5ths starting at C, then G, then D, etc. When you eventually get back to C, it will be an even doubling of where you started. With perfect tuning when you get back to C, you'll be higher than that.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#35

Post by Sesse__ »

NobodyNada wrote: post #13
weinzierl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. A…

Okay, full disclosure: I’m not entirely sure what the physical reason is, and I don’t have a source beyond just my own experience. However, I can definitely tell a difference, and it’s not subtle at all. If you play a note on the piano for me while my eyes are closed I can reliably tell whether it’s a black key or a white key. If I’m playing on a (high-quality sampled) synth piano that’s accidentally set to transpose…

It probably relates to the tuning you're used to. Piano strings do not have perfectly linear overtones, and thus piano tuning is never 100% equitemperal (I've tried; it sounds quite off). So the tuner has to make concessions across the scale, and most likely, there are more of them in the black keys since they are typically used less and you'd typically start with the pure intervals from A anyway.

Of course, since you hear this effect even when played one by one, this assumes you are unconciously comparing them to some reference pitch. (I'm not aware of anything in manifacturing of piano strings that would somehow make black strings be produced different, so unless I'm missing something, it would have to either be in terms of key mechanics, hammer wear, or tuning.)

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#36

Post by jefftk »

troupe wrote: post #34
jefftk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't yield very dramatic differences when transposed What differences are you thinking it does yield when transposed?

If you use perfect tuning the 5ths are a slightly larger interval than the way modern instruments are tuned. If you were to tune a piano to perfect tuning based on the key of C, the key of G would be slightly higher than what we hear today. The leading tone back to C would be slightly higher and "lean into" C a bit more. But if you decided to try to play in a distantly related key (say C# or something like that) the…

But my parent was talking about 12 tone equal temperament?

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#37

Post by troupe »

kangalioo wrote: post #12
tgv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In a key" means using the indicated scale. If you mean "all keys sound the same" literal, you're wrong: key changes are audible.

Key _changes_ are audible, but you can't tell a key on its own in equal temperament (except if you have perfect pitch)

While most people can't give a name to the key they are hearing, I'm not sure that proves they can hear no difference. A painter may look at a landscape and identify all the individual colors they are seeing where a common person may mostly ignore or tune out much of what they see, but it doesn't mean they aren't experiencing it in some lesser way even if they can't fully articulate it like a painter can

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#38

Post by rthomas6 »

Does this only apply to piano, brass, and woodwind? Seems like with choral or string music, high level performers would naturally adjust the tuning of their particular note to match the context of the chord. Like I can't imagine someone singing a 5th and NOT falling into a perfect tuning.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#39

Post by acadapter »

jefftk wrote: post #36
troupe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use perfect tuning the 5ths are a slightly larger interval than the way modern instruments are tuned. If you were to tune a piano to perfect tuning based on the key of C, the key of G would be slightly higher than what we hear today. The leading tone back to C would be slightly higher and "lean into" C a bit more. But if you decided to try to play in a distantly related key (say C# or something like that) the…

But my parent was talking about 12 tone equal temperament?

I replied using a comparison of 12-TET, to scales with unequal steps. The post I replied to, used only the perspective of modern keyboards when talking about transposing music.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#40

Post by jefftk »

atoav wrote: post #15
kangalioo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

I don't have perfect pitch, but I play a fretless instrument and this means I can hear the distances and relations between notes very clearly. I still however feel drawn to certain frequencies even without reference or other instrument playing and those frequencies I am drawn to are actual notes. I know 440 Hz is somewhat arbitrary sure, but 99% of the music we hear is somewhat referenced to it. To me there is certai…

> It happened more than once to me that some instrument had been detuned a semitone up or down and I noticed because the resulting music felt different.

I suspect this is you having some amount of absolute pitch? It's pretty common! What's rare is reliably and quickly identifying pitches without a reference, though even this can often be learned with practice.

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