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If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

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Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#21

Post by bloak »

goto11 wrote: post #6
arxanas wrote: post #2

Keep in mind that under equal temperament, used ubiquitously today, all keys sound the same. The descriptions in the article probably only apply to a certain other tuning system. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)#Key_coloration

Isn't equal temperament only possible for some instruments?

A bugle can't do equal temperament, so yes, but are there any standard orchestral instruments that can't be made to do equal temperament?

Obviously a string quartet doesn't normally play equal temperament, but they could if they wanted to, I think, if we ignore the playing of harmonics, which is a fairly unusual technique.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#22

Post by sethgrisham »

bloak wrote: post #21
goto11 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't equal temperament only possible for some instruments?

A bugle can't do equal temperament, so yes, but are there any standard orchestral instruments that can't be made to do equal temperament? Obviously a string quartet doesn't normally play equal temperament, but they could if they wanted to, I think, if we ignore the playing of harmonics, which is a fairly unusual technique.

Just because an instrument can do equal temperament doesn't mean that is necessarily the best choice. Although absolute pitch can't be heard by most, relative pitch can, and so when playing any interval, such as a fourth, it will sound off in equal temperament, yet sound perfect when you put it "out of tune". There's some pretty interesting music theory that comes out of the traditional 12 tones not being able to be equally subdivided to then be arranged into those perfect intervals

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#23

Post by weinzierl »

NobodyNada wrote: post #13
weinzierl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. A…

Okay, full disclosure: I’m not entirely sure what the physical reason is, and I don’t have a source beyond just my own experience. However, I can definitely tell a difference, and it’s not subtle at all. If you play a note on the piano for me while my eyes are closed I can reliably tell whether it’s a black key or a white key. If I’m playing on a (high-quality sampled) synth piano that’s accidentally set to transpose…

Maybe you have instrument specific perfect pitch without being aware of it?

Which keyboard/samples do you use where the difference is not subtle? I'd like to do the black key vs. white key test without looking. Maybe there is something to it I'd never noticed.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#24

Post by didericis »

kangalioo wrote: post #11
jancsika wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact that connotations inescapably persist through a long chain influences tracing all the way back to the relevant archaic tuning systems, treatises, church rituals, secular dances, and oral histories. "D minor: Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood." -Christian Schubart, 1778 "It's part of a trilogy, really-- a musical trilogy that I'm doing in d minor, which I find is the saddest of a…

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

Synesthetes with perfect pitch and strong associations to musical keys report associations consistently. The associations aren’t universal, though/not everyone would agree with Shubart.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#25

Post by vjulian »

kangalioo wrote: post #11
jancsika wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact that connotations inescapably persist through a long chain influences tracing all the way back to the relevant archaic tuning systems, treatises, church rituals, secular dances, and oral histories. "D minor: Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood." -Christian Schubart, 1778 "It's part of a trilogy, really-- a musical trilogy that I'm doing in d minor, which I find is the saddest of a…

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

Perfect pitch can most definitely be learned. The parent comment echos a common belief that mentally prevents people from distinguishing key signatures (even under equal temperament), which not insignificantly has a knock-on effect in music education.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#26

Post by jefftk »

arxanas wrote: post #2

Keep in mind that under equal temperament, used ubiquitously today, all keys sound the same. The descriptions in the article probably only apply to a certain other tuning system. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)#Key_coloration

This list is probably intended for someone playing under well temperament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament

Also this is only the case for the differences they describe between different root notes (A vs G); major versus minor is still totally a thing.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#27

Post by jefftk »

acadapter wrote: post #5
cryptonector wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A key is just a transposition for the notes as they appear on the music sheet to actual notes on an instrument. Each key is a different transposition. Good keyboards have a transpose feature where you get to pick a key, then you play a piece as you remember or read the music, then do the same thing in a different key, and even though you played the same keys, in the same order, with the same timing, the sound will be…

The original comment was about historical tunings with unequal spacing between each note, optimized for perfect ratios between certain notes. This has a drawback of being quite incompatible with some transpositions. Modern tuning with 12-TET is not perfect, but good enough, and doesn't yield very dramatic differences when transposed.

> doesn't yield very dramatic differences when transposed

What differences are you thinking it does yield when transposed?

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#28

Post by jefftk »

NobodyNada wrote: post #13
weinzierl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. A…

Okay, full disclosure: I’m not entirely sure what the physical reason is, and I don’t have a source beyond just my own experience. However, I can definitely tell a difference, and it’s not subtle at all. If you play a note on the piano for me while my eyes are closed I can reliably tell whether it’s a black key or a white key. If I’m playing on a (high-quality sampled) synth piano that’s accidentally set to transpose…

Here's a test you could do: take a recording of piano and play it back at 1.06x. Do the black keys start sounding like white keys? This distinguishes between something about the way a piano is constructed/played vs whether you have learned something about specific pitches.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#29

Post by jefftk »

enriquto wrote: post #17
kangalioo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key _changes_ are audible, but you can't tell a key on its own in equal temperament (except if you have perfect pitch)

There are some differences, though. For example, the resonance of the open G strings on the violins is sometimes audible, and this may make different keys sound different.

If you tune the violin down to a historical A=415, the open G string will still sound resonant even though in concert pitch it's now Gb.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#30

Post by [deleted] »

weinzierl wrote: post #8
NobodyNada wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There definitely can be instrument-specific differences though, even under equal temperment. For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys; and on stringed instruments, some keys lend themselves to voicings containg more open strings, which AFAIK leads to a brighter/fuller sound (though I don't play stringed instruments, so don't quote me on that). There's also the practical ma…

> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. A…

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