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If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

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Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#11

Post by kangalioo »

jancsika wrote: post #3
arxanas wrote: post #2

Keep in mind that under equal temperament, used ubiquitously today, all keys sound the same. The descriptions in the article probably only apply to a certain other tuning system. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)#Key_coloration

Except for the fact that connotations inescapably persist through a long chain influences tracing all the way back to the relevant archaic tuning systems, treatises, church rituals, secular dances, and oral histories. "D minor: Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood." -Christian Schubart, 1778 "It's part of a trilogy, really-- a musical trilogy that I'm doing in d minor, which I find is the saddest of a…

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#12

Post by kangalioo »

tgv wrote: post #10
arxanas wrote: post #2

Keep in mind that under equal temperament, used ubiquitously today, all keys sound the same. The descriptions in the article probably only apply to a certain other tuning system. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)#Key_coloration

"In a key" means using the indicated scale. If you mean "all keys sound the same" literal, you're wrong: key changes are audible.

Key _changes_ are audible, but you can't tell a key on its own in equal temperament (except if you have perfect pitch)

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#13

Post by NobodyNada »

weinzierl wrote: post #8
NobodyNada wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There definitely can be instrument-specific differences though, even under equal temperment. For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys; and on stringed instruments, some keys lend themselves to voicings containg more open strings, which AFAIK leads to a brighter/fuller sound (though I don't play stringed instruments, so don't quote me on that). There's also the practical ma…

> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. A…

Okay, full disclosure: I’m not entirely sure what the physical reason is, and I don’t have a source beyond just my own experience.

However, I can definitely tell a difference, and it’s not subtle at all. If you play a note on the piano for me while my eyes are closed I can reliably tell whether it’s a black key or a white key. If I’m playing on a (high-quality sampled) synth piano that’s accidentally set to transpose -1 or +1 semitones I notice right away that it sounds like a black key where I played a white key or vice versa. Something about the black keys seems to sound a bit harsher/sharper/tangier to my ears; maybe a slightly sharper attack and/or slightly brighter harmonics in the upper-mid range.

I suppose it’s possible that I’ve just learned to distinguish the pitches — I don’t have perfect pitch, but I’ve been playing piano for quite literally longer than I remember, so maybe my brain just internalized the C major scale, or something. But I’m sure I can hear a difference :)

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#14

Post by tiborsaas »

arxanas wrote: post #2

Keep in mind that under equal temperament, used ubiquitously today, all keys sound the same. The descriptions in the article probably only apply to a certain other tuning system. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)#Key_coloration

I'm not sure what you mean by "sound the same", but just by comparing a simple change from major to minor is quite a dramatic change:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CTYymbbEL4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CQAjCrYPY

Same thing with a more recent pop tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9HZH_P_5qM

There's also a reason that in electronic music A minor is used significantly more: https://www.edmprod.com/beatport-analysis/

It probably has a lot to do with how well that key suits club speakers.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#15

Post by atoav »

kangalioo wrote: post #11
jancsika wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact that connotations inescapably persist through a long chain influences tracing all the way back to the relevant archaic tuning systems, treatises, church rituals, secular dances, and oral histories. "D minor: Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood." -Christian Schubart, 1778 "It's part of a trilogy, really-- a musical trilogy that I'm doing in d minor, which I find is the saddest of a…

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

I don't have perfect pitch, but I play a fretless instrument and this means I can hear the distances and relations between notes very clearly.

I still however feel drawn to certain frequencies even without reference or other instrument playing and those frequencies I am drawn to are actual notes. I know 440 Hz is somewhat arbitrary sure, but 99% of the music we hear is somewhat referenced to it.

To me there is certainly a difference between playing a song with an fundamental A 440 Hz or an fundamental A# 466.16 Hz. Not even just when playing them next to each other, but also when you play them days apart. It happened more than once to me that some instrument had been detuned a semitone up or down and I noticed because the resulting music felt different. All of that of course playing solo with no reference to compare to.

Let's not forget, that our brain is not neutral towards frequencies. We can hear whether something is made of metal or wood, whether it is massive or hollow, whether it is controlled or uncontrolled. Deeper usually means bigger regardless of overtone structure. Higher can for example also mean faster (e.g. wind). Parents can hear in a slightly higher pitched noise their kid makes whether they have hurt themselves even if the noise is the same they make every day. Of people speak higher they are excited etc. A lot of that is about relative potch and overtone structures, but even if you take that away, some part that is absolute remains.

If you have a semitone of a difference in some physical vibrating object that can be a noticable difference in mass.

I am not saying transcendental statements like "key X is the most melancholic" are true, what I say is that even to those without perfect pitch hearing a semitone difference might feel different without reference (especially since our sound systems might be able to reproduce one bass fundamental better/punchier/clearer than another).

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#16

Post by Hinrik »

tiborsaas wrote: post #14
arxanas wrote: post #2

Keep in mind that under equal temperament, used ubiquitously today, all keys sound the same. The descriptions in the article probably only apply to a certain other tuning system. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)#Key_coloration

I'm not sure what you mean by "sound the same", but just by comparing a simple change from major to minor is quite a dramatic change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CTYymbbEL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CQAjCrYPY Same thing with a more recent pop tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9HZH_P_5qM There's also a reason that in electronic music A minor is used significantly more: https://www.edmprod.com/beatpor…

>I'm not sure what you mean by "sound the same", but just by comparing a simple change from major to minor is quite a dramatic change

That's because OP is not talking about the differences between scales (major vs minor) but keys (C major vs A major). With equal temperament all keys of the same scale have the exact same intervals between the notes. They are simply shifted up or down by a constant amount. Before equal temperament that was not the case.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#17

Post by enriquto »

kangalioo wrote: post #12
tgv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In a key" means using the indicated scale. If you mean "all keys sound the same" literal, you're wrong: key changes are audible.

Key _changes_ are audible, but you can't tell a key on its own in equal temperament (except if you have perfect pitch)

There are some differences, though. For example, the resonance of the open G strings on the violins is sometimes audible, and this may make different keys sound different.

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#19

Post by bloak »

enriquto wrote: post #17
kangalioo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key _changes_ are audible, but you can't tell a key on its own in equal temperament (except if you have perfect pitch)

There are some differences, though. For example, the resonance of the open G strings on the violins is sometimes audible, and this may make different keys sound different.

I suppose techniques like vibrato (which you can't do on an open string) and harmonics (which you can normally only do on an open string) make a clear distinction and give a composer an incentive to use a particular key (or give a player an incentive to use a non-standard tuning).

Re: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key (1778)

#20

Post by elevaet »

atoav wrote: post #15
kangalioo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need perfect pitch to be able to tell two keys apart with no reference tone. I'm pretty sure the key connotations are placebo by now

I don't have perfect pitch, but I play a fretless instrument and this means I can hear the distances and relations between notes very clearly. I still however feel drawn to certain frequencies even without reference or other instrument playing and those frequencies I am drawn to are actual notes. I know 440 Hz is somewhat arbitrary sure, but 99% of the music we hear is somewhat referenced to it. To me there is certai…

> (especially since our sound systems might be able to reproduce one bass fundamental better/punchier/clearer than another).

Yes, especially in that bass range, the absolute value of the frequencies really come into play. A low C at 55Hz might be fully audible on a typical home system, but 2 notes down a ~41Hz A note might dissapear because it's getting harder to play that frequency on a smaller set of speakers.

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