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Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

61–70 of 140 posts

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#61
post #21
post #3

What I find odd about this is that... Trains are the go-to means of intercity transport across much of Europe. The term "High speed rail" isn't strictly defined, but seems to kick in somewhere between 110 and 155 mph. Pretty much every intercity train in the UK is running at 125mph for at least some of their journey. Europe is full of functioning high speed rail networks - TGV, ICE, Eurostar, networks in Spain and It…

"functioning" is an exaggeration. Most of the German trains are slower than 300kph most of the time. They are also often crowded, delayed or outright cancelled. They are also quite expensive, compared to planes. I think the author has a very valid point when it comes to the cost of rail tracks. It's something the proponents always conveniently ignore. On top of that, a rail station has quite a limited capacity, espec…

> The travel time between, e.g., Berlin and Paris is something like four to five times as long as by plane.

I think your estimate is quite off here: Train connections from Berlin to Paris take about 8.5 hours. Flights take 1 hour and 50 minutes plus the overhead time for traveling to and from the airport, security and taxiing. Just let's suppose that this will be 2.5 hours in total, which would be very fast. So we are comparing 8.5 hours with 4.5 hours. So, the factor is less than two rather than the four to five you suggested.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can show up 30-45 mins before any domestic flight Where? I was flying in Europe and was asked to be on airport 150 minutes before departure.

They ask you to be there early just to be sure, but you don't have to, it's at your own risks. I've done 30 mins at smaller European airports no problems. Online check-in, only carry-on luggage, 10 minutes for security and you board among the lasts with minutes to spare. Of course you don't have a lot of margins if anything goes wrong, but at airports you know it's definitely doable.

> but you don't have to, it's at your own risks

That isn't a scalable or viable solution. The recommendations exist for capacity and planning reasons.

By the same logical extension you can simply show up at a train station 5 minutes before the train, the results of taking a chance are on you.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#63
post #3

What I find odd about this is that... Trains are the go-to means of intercity transport across much of Europe. The term "High speed rail" isn't strictly defined, but seems to kick in somewhere between 110 and 155 mph. Pretty much every intercity train in the UK is running at 125mph for at least some of their journey. Europe is full of functioning high speed rail networks - TGV, ICE, Eurostar, networks in Spain and It…

Indeed. I had to fly between LA and SF while on holiday earlier this year, because the equivalent rail service takes over 11 hours. I’ve done those London-Scotland routes hundreds of times over the years and they are 4.5 hours end-to-end, and as you say this isn’t even on modern high-speed infrastructure.

I get that it may be impractical to introduce a continent-spanning national rail service in the US, but there are a whole bunch of costal corridors where rail is—from a functional standpoint—objectively feasible.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#64
The article seems to be completely littered with factual errors.

1. The author says that HSR projects are about a third below passenger projections everywhere. Everyone who has taken the TGV between Bordeaux and Paris, the ICE between Cologne and Frankfurt and many of the other lines in Europe knows that it is trivially not true. The Bordeaux Paris train is often sold out several times a day.

2. The author says the SFO to LA line comes at $350m/mile which he gives as indication for HSR construction. I don't know about the accuracy for the SFO to LA line, but it's completely off for general HSR. Even the highest estimate here for a double track HSR line is $2.6m/mile here: https://compassinternational.net/railroad-engineering-constr...

3. The author says that 100,000 passengers daily is the SFO to LAX traffic today. If I look at stats for SFO it has around 3M passengers per month, I assume not all are flying to/from LA so the number can't be right.

4. The whole discussion about interruptions is also weird. Yes if a rail line gets interrupted you probably can't easily route around it. But it's incorrect to say you can always do that in a car, as everyone stuck in a traffic jam can attest to. Also I would like to see some statistics on rail/track interruptions vs road interruptions.

5. The subsidies discussion also seems weird. He acknowledges that roads and airtravel receive subsidies as well, but then dismisses them because road operation cost are covered by the driver. Sure but maintanance is covered by the state again. Most rail companies would be very profitable if they would not have to pay for the network (admittedly they often don't want to let go of that control, because it allows them to keep competition put)

I don't think I can take any argument so littered with factual errors seriously.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#65

> Despite decades of development, only a handful of routes in Europe operate at anything like airplane-competitive speeds, which for all but the shortest routes, require > 300 km/h or > 185 mph. Not really, given massive fixed cost at airplane terminal and airports being typically harder to get to than train station. When I was flying this summer, I was asked to come to airport 150 minutes before planned departure. 2…

At least where I live, the 150 minutes before time is a side effect of Covid. A lot of airport staff were let go and restaffing with security clearances takes a while.

This summer was exceptional, it will go back to normal like 60 minutes for domestic travel and maybe 90 minutes for international travel.

Break even, time wise, here is around 500 km and then train is the better choice. But there are a lot of destinations that can only be served realistically by airplanes and that is not likely to change much during my life time.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#66
post #3

What I find odd about this is that... Trains are the go-to means of intercity transport across much of Europe. The term "High speed rail" isn't strictly defined, but seems to kick in somewhere between 110 and 155 mph. Pretty much every intercity train in the UK is running at 125mph for at least some of their journey. Europe is full of functioning high speed rail networks - TGV, ICE, Eurostar, networks in Spain and It…

I lìve in Europe and I have traveled maybe 10 times in my life travelling between euro countries. It's nice for city trips, but it's way more expensive than by car. And once you need to be outside of a city a train is not very convenient.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#67
post #3

What I find odd about this is that... Trains are the go-to means of intercity transport across much of Europe. The term "High speed rail" isn't strictly defined, but seems to kick in somewhere between 110 and 155 mph. Pretty much every intercity train in the UK is running at 125mph for at least some of their journey. Europe is full of functioning high speed rail networks - TGV, ICE, Eurostar, networks in Spain and It…

London-Edinburgh is only just faster by train. There is not much in it TBH. It is about the break even point I guess. There are other benefits like you can use your phone and get up and walk around more easily. If you go first class you can actually get some work done at tables and stuff. But the flip side is train travel is often 10 or 20 times more expensive than flying, so only worth doing if you can expense it IM…

As someone who has made this trip countless times, London-Edinburgh is sluggish. The UK's only true high-speed network is the Eurostar from London ('HS1'), under the channel.

Paris-Marseilles in 3.5 hours is a better comparator.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can show up 30-45 mins before any domestic flight Where? I was flying in Europe and was asked to be on airport 150 minutes before departure.

They ask you to be there early just to be sure, but you don't have to, it's at your own risks. I've done 30 mins at smaller European airports no problems. Online check-in, only carry-on luggage, 10 minutes for security and you board among the lasts with minutes to spare. Of course you don't have a lot of margins if anything goes wrong, but at airports you know it's definitely doable.

Miss one flight and you won’t bet on this again; because unlike trains you’ll be waiting 6-12 hours (or longer) for a re-booked flight.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#69
post #21
post #3

What I find odd about this is that... Trains are the go-to means of intercity transport across much of Europe. The term "High speed rail" isn't strictly defined, but seems to kick in somewhere between 110 and 155 mph. Pretty much every intercity train in the UK is running at 125mph for at least some of their journey. Europe is full of functioning high speed rail networks - TGV, ICE, Eurostar, networks in Spain and It…

"functioning" is an exaggeration. Most of the German trains are slower than 300kph most of the time. They are also often crowded, delayed or outright cancelled. They are also quite expensive, compared to planes. I think the author has a very valid point when it comes to the cost of rail tracks. It's something the proponents always conveniently ignore. On top of that, a rail station has quite a limited capacity, espec…

I don't think the problems with German rail apply universally. The prevalence of low-speed tracks and frequency of delays comes from a period of missing reinvestment following the (semi-)privatization of Deutsche Bahn. Not every network will have this issue.

Re: Why high speed rail hasn’t caught on

#70
post #21
post #3

What I find odd about this is that... Trains are the go-to means of intercity transport across much of Europe. The term "High speed rail" isn't strictly defined, but seems to kick in somewhere between 110 and 155 mph. Pretty much every intercity train in the UK is running at 125mph for at least some of their journey. Europe is full of functioning high speed rail networks - TGV, ICE, Eurostar, networks in Spain and It…

"functioning" is an exaggeration. Most of the German trains are slower than 300kph most of the time. They are also often crowded, delayed or outright cancelled. They are also quite expensive, compared to planes. I think the author has a very valid point when it comes to the cost of rail tracks. It's something the proponents always conveniently ignore. On top of that, a rail station has quite a limited capacity, espec…

> a rail station has quite a limited capacity

most new&large airports are far outside of cities (example: Munich, Frankfurt, Berlin, ...) because of the enormous space needed and environmental problems is creates. Nearer airports will close operating at 10pm, whereas train stations will operate 24h no problem.

Large projects for new train stations/systems in major cities (Hamburg-Altona, Stuttgart, ...) take a long time, but they exist. Large new airport projects near (!) major cities here in Germany don't exist.

> Most of the German trains are slower than 300kph most of the time.

That's because Germany has dense population regions and there always will be stops in cities and a lot of passengers. It's an optimization question. Being able to run a train system with max 300kmph is much more expensive than at 250kmph and the advantages are not that huge.

> They are also often crowded, delayed or outright cancelled. They are also quite expensive, compared to planes.

Planes are always crowded with a tiny personal space, difficult to board/leave, difficult to work in, difficult to reach, subject to a complex passage on an airport with all its rules&regulations, longer upfront booking, ...

For example when I want to travel from Hamburg to Düsseldorf (400km) on wednesday morning, the price is around 35 Euros incl. local public transport tickets with my Bahncard 50 which I got from the company. There is no flight like that.

Hamburg/Munich: >600km. Already too long for a business trip by train. Cost 60€ with Bahncard 50 incl. local public transport tickets. Time: 6:30 center to center. Flight: much more expensive, unreliable (I remember been waiting on friday evening two hours on the runway for the start), Munich airport is 40km outside, the Munich airport has long transit times. Time from city center to city center by flight is around four hours. The travel costs about three times as much.

> Most of the German trains are slower than 300kph most of the time. They are also often crowded, delayed or outright cancelled. They are also quite expensive, compared to planes.

For certain longer trips, but if I want from Hamburg to Berlin, Frankfurt, ... I take the train.

> especially if it's inside the city

That's great: with an ICE I want to reach the city center and not some airport 40km outside (like in Munich). I want to be in a big hub where all the local transports are reachable.

High-Speed trains here are connecting centers of a large local public transport system: local trains, underground trains, busses, ferries, ... When I travel by train between Hamburg and another major city, the tickets for much of the local transport systems for the start end destination cities are already included.

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