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Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

bloomberg.com

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Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#551
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Key policy writers clearly don't understand the difference between energy and power. Ridiculous. Of course they do. > Shuts down nuclear power. You don't know what you are talking about. It was decided decades ago in a referendum that Sweden should move away from nuclear power. A majority of the parties in the parliament has supported this for decades. Despite that. The government hasn't actively closed down nuclea…

The winning proposal of referendum about nuclear power in 1980 never said anything about when the shutdown should be, that was something the politicians added afterwards. What it said was that shutdowns should be done as long it doesn’t undermine employment and welfare. And because these shutdowns have radically increased electricity prices with unemployment as a result, thus both undermining employment and welfare,…

> these shutdowns have radically increased electricity prices

No they have not. Sweden has been a net exporter of electricity every year since 2010. There is no electricity deficit in Sweden.

Prices have increased because we've become more integrated with the European electricity market. Not because electricity production is lower or more expensive. The energy companies make unprecedented profits because they are able to sell cheaply produced electricity at expensive rates.

The last year prices have increased because of the energy/economic warfare waged between the EU and Russia.

The idea that a couple of Swedish nuclear reactors could alter the whole European energy market significantly is ludicrous.

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#552
post #154
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No civil nuke plant has ever been operated, anywhere in the world, without massive government subsidies, or by coercing ratepayers to pay well above market rates. Looks like the Swedish public will be on the hook for subsidies for decades more while the rest of Europe (France and Romania perhaps excepted) coasts on renewables at ever plunging prices.

Energy use in Sweden peaks in the winter, and especially a few extremely cold days. The sun literally doesn't rise in the northern parts, and the coldest days have almost no wind (and frankly it's not very strong overall either). This and last year, Swedes are stocking up on firewood, and it's not for cosplaying reason. Several knowledgeable people predict rolling blackouts this winter. I would love renewables as muc…

Wind power is stronger in the winter

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#553
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the difference is that during a Dunkelflaute, peaker plants might have to generate a large amount of or the majority of electricity, whereas today, peaker plants are build to only generate relatively small amount of power at the margin. So, we'd have to build a large number of peaker plants, which are really expensive in that they have to amortize their costs over a small amount of uptime.

short term weather forecasts are amazingly accurate. this allows us to deliberately "extend" the "range" of buffer storage. and even today in some situations some energy intense heavy industries have to pause production for a few hours if there is a lack of energy supply. It's a political problem, not a technical one, and we do not, absolutely not have to build up new parallel peaker capacity. we can simply keep sele…

Figuring out how much extra capacity is needed still needs to be done.

Simply stating that no new peaker plants are needed "because storage capacity will be there" is a bit too simplistic.

I'd be glad if that's the case, but I'm not convinced it's actually true.

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#554
post #7

The new coalition government has pledged $40B (approximately the market cap of Twitter, heh) in loan guarantees for nuclear power construction. They have also pledged to create legal guarantees that future politicians will not be able to shut down functioning nuclear power reactors without suitable monetary compensation to the owners/operators of these reactors. In addition to this, they are commissioning an urgent s…

The previous government didn't stop the shutdown planned 40+ years ago (due to a national referendum), in part because the owners (Vattenfall) said it's not economically feasible to run them anymore without subsidies. It's complex.

Yeah… it tends to get uneconomical if you slap a huge special tax on it. A nuclear specific “effektskatt” was added in 2015, this is the real reason that they prematurely shut down the reactors (which would have been running until the mid 2020s).

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity, like an increasing bunch of other things, is part of the infrastructure. The amount and different levels of infrastructure pretty much define "civilization", do away with infrastructure and your civilization is done for. Which also means that the way a civilization treats its infrastructure tells you a lot about this civilization. If you look at Europe, they messed things up big time. Firstly, running in…

But I think it will, and we see this already happening. Currently, the electricity price is so high that it makes economic sense to build wind and solar that are better for the environment. I'm not saying it should be an unregulated free market - we've seen those don't work (exactly because of the externalities). But this does not mean there cannot be regulated markets and partial markets. The grid is infrastructure…

But the energy market is not natural, it is completely artificial, based on rules which are more befitting to a non-market setup. For example, Europe has the largest (not in size but connected power) synchronized grid in the world. That means you cannot just run some solar cells and connect them to the network, this is controlled externally. Which completely breaks this "demand and supply" already, not to talk about how the energy price is formed.

Read: You cannot even run this as an unregulated market, it wouldn't work. That requires every company having its own electricity grid, and for example the possibility that your house has 10 different power connectors available, so you can actually choose which one to pick. That is conceptually broken. And just the grid as infrastructure doesn't work, either, because of reasons outlined above.

Maybe forcing the idea of a market on everything is a dogma which we should eradicate out of our heads, the sooner the better.

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#556
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear has always had massive scaling issues because leaving base load power generation means ever lower capacity factors. Running a nuclear power plant with a 40% capacity factor more than doubles the cost per kWh. You can look at Frances ~70% average Capacity factor in 2 ways either it’s a ~30% cost premium over most of the rest of the world on every power plant. Or more realistically ~40% of generation was at the…

Honestly what we really need is something that we can pump that power into (not a battery - something productive I mean) so we can keep those reactors at higher efficiency levels. I do not know what that is but surely vast amounts of extra power could be used for something useful no? Research? Cleaning the air? Hot tubs for Walruses?

Something that can turn on or off at a moments notice? Bitcoin mining is perfect and even subsidises the production costs :)

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There exists a group of folks who claim nuclear isn't green and is going to 'kill the planet'. The alternative to nuclear is to either use fuels with a massive carbon footprint, or introduce a level of energy suffering on the population that is beyond the pale. You are exactly right - this is the only way.

Funnily the rhetoric of nuclear proponents is always exclusively aimed against renewables not fossil fuels. They know if not for ideological/political reasons/influence no nuclear plants will be build because it is just too expensive. If I can build double (now, the difference is rapidly increasing) the capacity using wind or solar why should I build nuclear? People who propose to do otherwise are the ones who are in…

And what happens when it's not windy or sunny?

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#558
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

short term weather forecasts are amazingly accurate. this allows us to deliberately "extend" the "range" of buffer storage. and even today in some situations some energy intense heavy industries have to pause production for a few hours if there is a lack of energy supply. It's a political problem, not a technical one, and we do not, absolutely not have to build up new parallel peaker capacity. we can simply keep sele…

Figuring out how much extra capacity is needed still needs to be done. Simply stating that no new peaker plants are needed "because storage capacity will be there" is a bit too simplistic. I'd be glad if that's the case, but I'm not convinced it's actually true.

right we have 7 years to figure this out for 80% renewables and 17 years to figure it out for close to 100%

it took 1 year to build and start operation of giga Shanghai, and not much longer for giga Berlin.

it's a political challenge, not a technical one.

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"clean nuclear power" advocates should be made to visit Fukushima

Yes, so they can learn what went wrong there and advocate "clean and safe nuclear power"

Clean and safe doesn't mean infallible. Problem with reactors is the failures are disasters of a very high level.

Militarily they are a liability too.

Re: Sweden’s incoming cabinet says new nuclear reactors will be built

#560
post #474
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you think a large group proposing something is collectively insane, it usually means you simply don't understand their argument. Surely, you know that wind power has had a lot of trouble expanding in Sweden due to huge opposition from every community against building wind turbines on their land. Everyone likes the idea of wind power until they try to build a huge turbine on their backyard. Sun power, in Sweden,…

We have a large scale war in Europe now with Russia threatening with nukes. We have attacks by unknown actor that destroyed gas pipelines. From this one can see how the idea that somebody will bomb out a nuclear power station somewhere in Europe gets non-trivial probability. So nuclear power really cannot be safe when this planet allows crazy guys to gain enough power. As for coal then consider that an electric car t…

> So nuclear power really cannot be safe when this planet allows crazy guys to gain enough power.

This is an argument that ignores reality completely. How many attacks have there been against nuclear power plants by crazy guys even when we've had nuclear power throughout some of the most dangerous periods in history, including the Cold War and the current Ukrainian conflict?

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