141–150 of 326 posts
Like the results cited here, we too are extremely pleased that the majority of our coding now falls into our preferred language - Clojure (using Hiccup). Very pleasant experience!
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Oh god please let’s not go back to JSF
How was it worse than the current state of affairs of complexity with React? Bowser, npm, typescript, obfuscation, compressors, build pipelines.. it’s a lot. Life at the front-end today is so discombobulated, creating a bunch of backend APIs which will generally only be used and consumed by a single browser front-end. I’m genuinely curious, because I never used JSF except for a single school exercise
Salesforce (classic) is JSF.
It’s full of bugs and quirks. But it’s kind of nice in certain situations.
The big problem here is performance load on both client and server. State is sent back and forth and it that kan be huge, and needs to be deserializes, altered, and serialized back again every action. It also doesn’t reflect any http verbs. Everything is POST
The big site was technically running on JSF, but in such a way that it wasn’t JSF any more
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You haven't disagreed with anything I said. My original comment says "Htmx is great for developers who need client side interactivity, but would rather not write any js". I'm sure a team of Python developers is enjoying not writing Javascript. My point is that you don't have to switch to a completely different paradigm to reap the performance benefits that the article lists.
I didn’t read the comment as disagreeing either. Sometimes people are commenting not to disagree ;)
I don’t understand why this effort was undertaken vs migrating to NextJS and accomplishing the same thing in half the time without needing to ramp up more Python.
Because migrating to NextJS would have meant doing a rewrite of the entire backend which was already written in Python/Django and running in production. Migrating to htmx was much less risky.
There are four main problems in the React SPA world: - State management - hooks are awful for anything complex - Packaging + Bundling - Webpack kitchen sink, JS/TS, browser vs node vs random runtimes, packaging vs bundling, etc - Data/API binding - Adds distributed state to your data and the complexity that goes with that (cross dom reuse, caching, staleness, realtime updates, etc) - SEO/Prehydrating - Mostly applies…
The data syncs perfectly, keeps up-to-date. GraphQL subscriptions allow for real time updates. Oh, and React-Hook-Form for forms, which feeds quite nicely into my GraphQL mutations. It's a real neat solution.
As for server side, I've started using Python-Strawberry (was using Graphene but it stopped receiving updates) with Django.
It's super solid stack, with typings flowing all the way from server API through to my react components.
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> as you reach a more “app like” experience with multiple layers of state control on the front end you need to reach for a front end JS framework I think that if you fully embrace HTMX's model, you can go far further than anticipated without a JS framework. Do you really need to be managing state on the client? Is it really faster to communicate via JSON, or protobuf, whatever, rather than atomic data and returning j…
The slippery slope that scares me (as a React developer) about htmx (or Hotwire.dev, in particular is the one I was looking at), is that you start making the assumption that the client's internet is fast. There was demo that showed it normally takes ~100ms to click a mouse, and if you attach to the on-mouse-down, then by the time the mouse has been released (100ms later), you can have already fetched an updated rende…
The most common trajectory for react and other SPA framework apps is to also make this assumption, waving away the weight of libraries and front-end business logic with talk of how build tools are stripping out unused code so it must be light, while frequently skipping affordances for outright network failure that the browser handles transparently, oh and hey don't forget to load it all up with the analytics calls.
But maybe more crucially: what's the real difference between the overhead of generating / delivering markup vs JSON? They're both essentially data structure -> string serialization processes. JSON is situationally more compact but by a rough factor that places most components on the same order of magnitude.
And rendered markup is tautologically about the data necessary to render. Meanwhile JSON payloads may or may not have been audited for size. Or if they have, frequently by people who can't conceive of any other solution than graphql front-end libraries.
Whether you push html or json or freakin' xml over the wire is a red herring.
Heck, "nativeness" might be a red herring given frequent shortcomings in native apps themselves -- so many of them can't operate offline in spite of the fact that should be their strength because native devs ALSO assume client's internet is fast/on.
I am fortunate to have gone 10 years without having to use react in production ever. I've used rails+turbolinks and included Vue or Stimulus or even jQuery to get on page interactivity done. The current state of the react / jam world strikes me as an HR led solution where you can get humans who only know JS to be more productive without having to worry about servers, databases or infrastructure.
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> Only the API needs to be secure. If users type passwords, sensitive data, anything into the frontend then any javascript, plugins etc pulled in by that page is an attack vector.
Unless you do something extremely silly with the login page, like sending it as a GET parameter, or storing it locally, or not having a CSRF token, or not using HTTPS, I don't see what special measures are required!
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> as you reach a more “app like” experience with multiple layers of state control on the front end you need to reach for a front end JS framework I think that if you fully embrace HTMX's model, you can go far further than anticipated without a JS framework. Do you really need to be managing state on the client? Is it really faster to communicate via JSON, or protobuf, whatever, rather than atomic data and returning j…
The slippery slope that scares me (as a React developer) about htmx (or Hotwire.dev, in particular is the one I was looking at), is that you start making the assumption that the client's internet is fast. There was demo that showed it normally takes ~100ms to click a mouse, and if you attach to the on-mouse-down, then by the time the mouse has been released (100ms later), you can have already fetched an updated rende…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> as you reach a more “app like” experience with multiple layers of state control on the front end you need to reach for a front end JS framework I think that if you fully embrace HTMX's model, you can go far further than anticipated without a JS framework. Do you really need to be managing state on the client? Is it really faster to communicate via JSON, or protobuf, whatever, rather than atomic data and returning j…
The slippery slope that scares me (as a React developer) about htmx (or Hotwire.dev, in particular is the one I was looking at), is that you start making the assumption that the client's internet is fast. There was demo that showed it normally takes ~100ms to click a mouse, and if you attach to the on-mouse-down, then by the time the mouse has been released (100ms later), you can have already fetched an updated rende…
If react sites delivered on that promise, that would be compelling. However, while my previous laptop was no slouch, I could very often tell when a site was an SPA just in virtue of how sluggish it ran. Maybe it's possible to build performant websites targeting such slower (but not slow!) machines, but it seemed that sluggish was quite often the norm in practice.