Live data from Hacker News

Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

cbsnews.com

361–370 of 425 posts

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#361
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it does. The billions who subsist on seafood will now have to eat eggs, pork, beef. This will cause supply issues of those things. If you're a vegetarian you might be safe, though those too will be in higher demand maybe. There's also water shortages, see the drought that's drying up the Mississippi river. Without water we'll have less and less crop yields. We slowly had changes happen over 3 decades, then all o…

> "billions who subsist on seafood will now have to eat eggs, pork, beef" There is another possible outcome... :/

Soylent Green? (referring to the original 1970s movie, not the faux-food thing some grifter tried to flog a few years ago)

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#362

Well, I don't like any seafood, so, on the one hand this does not affect me at all. On the other hand... this is just one more piece of data to add to the ever growing pile of how badly we are ruining the planet for any life above the level of single cell organisms. We are screwed.

Sure it does. The billions who subsist on seafood will now have to eat eggs, pork, beef. This will cause supply issues of those things. If you're a vegetarian you might be safe, though those too will be in higher demand maybe. There's also water shortages, see the drought that's drying up the Mississippi river. Without water we'll have less and less crop yields. We slowly had changes happen over 3 decades, then all o…

Food shortages/expenses is probably one of the few things that would actually get the average person to revolt/do something other than work their crap career-job that cant buy them a house.

This could be fun ! I mean when it happens it will be awful for those that have homes, good careers, etc. But still will be an interesting part of history to observe.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#363
I "like" how the beginning of the segment states the "biggest impact" is gonna be on the fishing economy, not on the restaurants.

I'd argue the biggest impact is on... the crab population? Guess nobody really cares for those after all. In which case losing them serves us well.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#364
post #4

Something similar happened to the cod fishing industry in Newfoundland and other parts of eastern Canada 30 years ago. The reason: overfishing, due in large part to technological advances. Here's what happened: Canada and NAFO continued to overestimate the abundance of cod in the Atlantic Ocean and therefore continued to set dangerously high [Total Allowable Catches]. This was in large part due to the widespread prac…

I work in the Alaska fishery and am typing this while sat in one of the largest fish processing facilities in the western hemisphere. I have the spare time because, well, there's no crabs coming in and everything else is mostly out of season. About half of the boats on Discovery belong to the company I work for, the largest in the US. So I'll take the opportunity to share some on-the-ground observations. Overfishing:…

> Overfishing

With all due respect, fishing many will take out a huge portion of a potential next generation, so it’s not about affecting the population as is.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind, there are a (relatively) small number of ecomonies and peoples causing the majority of the damage / side effects. The others can continue as they have been. The current model isn't sustainable. Something *must* change. There can be no actual change without change. The point is, the economies in question (i.e., the over-contributors) need to change and all we're talking about is getting back to normal. I…

A reality where the alternatives are far worse. No, the others can't "continue as they have been" if things change. Most of those countries "not causing a problem" accept a great deal of food and fuel imports from the "over-contributors", never mind goods, services and financing. They literally cannot support their populations without these imports. If the global economy comes screeching to a halt as major players sc…

>Problem is we know what no economic growth looks like. It's some form of feudalism, where powerful entities hoard all the wealth and we all rent the rest.

Powerful entities keep growing and getting a bigger share of the economy so we have to grow it just to not become poorer? Isn't it strange that no growth is considered the same thing as a shrinking standard of living? In any sane theoretical economics model, a lack of growth shouldn't mean a reduction of living standards, it should mean a continuation of our existing very high living standards which also precludes any form of automatic runaway wealth accumulation.

I have read a short anarchist book and I have seen the argument that it is the state that causes the problem but I am not fully convinced that just having a government is the problem but rather something the government does that is invisible to the naked eye. Subsidies are a classic example. Everyone drives because the road is free, nobody wants to pay the fully internalized costs of buses because the subsidy exposure of a car for every potential bus passenger is greater. The bus has to be subsidized to the same degree as the bus to compete! Those subsidies are paid for by taxes which decouples the amount of subsidies received from the amount of effort put in and the amount of labor paid into the system through taxes. This disconnect is most likely the problem when it comes to government activity. You can build a business and receive subsidies proportional to the size of the company while someone else has to pay for the subsidies.

Now, transportation is important but it only serves as an obvious in your face example where the subsidy structure is visible and how competition demands subsidies.

The real question is whether there are state subsidized factors of production. If they exist, then every other industry will have to ask for an equal level of subsidies to continue doing business.

The food industry is a classic industry where doing without a subsidy is unthinkable. The question is, why does food production need a subsidy in the first place? Can't farmers just be obligated to overproduce food on their own and pass this on as higher food prices, why does the government have to pay?

It has most likely to do with land as running a farm is impossible without it. If the land is leased, the farm is under intensive pressure to produce profitable crops rather than a surplus or the farmer won't be able to pay the lease. How is land subsidized? The military complex and police forces are in charge of protecting the country and enforcing property laws. How much can the owner of the land charge to the farmer? At least as high as the subsidy paid on land by providing free protective services plus the quality of the land itself. The latter subsidy might be paid by nature rather than the government but the government could tax this difference and remove the positive externality.

But even if production has succeeded, distribution must still happen and it can only happen through trading via the national money system which is practically speaking a monopoly. If you start out with no money, how do you get more money? By borrowing it for interest. That interest rate forces another profitability pressure on the farmer, he simply cannot produce food for everyone without a subsidy if that interest rate itself originated from a subsidy. Competing borrowers might be borrowing to buy land which receives subsidies thereby outcompeting farmers. There is also the fact that the money system is free but it generates massive amounts of costs for the economy. Printing physical bank notes costs money, providing bank accounts and branches costs money, providing loans costs money and accepting electronic payments require specialized terminals which cost money, opening a shop and providing goods every day aka widespread acceptance also costs money beyond the goods themselves. What this means is that the holders of money get to sleep while everyone else without money must toil and keep moving and stay active. The subsidy isn't paid out in money but in real terms but the lender can now step in and market these subsidies as if he provided them, he can turn them into cold hard cash by charging interest. Thus the lower bound on interest on money that borrowed from another is somewhere between 3%-5% and the only way it is lower in practice is because banks create new money through loans rather than lending on existing deposits via CDs. If interest originates from subsidies then wealth accumulation must be automatic.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#366

I "like" how the beginning of the segment states the "biggest impact" is gonna be on the fishing economy, not on the restaurants. I'd argue the biggest impact is on... the crab population? Guess nobody really cares for those after all. In which case losing them serves us well.

We are like coal to be burned as fuel for capital

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People call out tragedy of the commons a lot, for cases where it seems like purely a tragedy of capitalism. Nobody overfished these crabs to eat themselves. A globalized food market was willing to pay for crab, and has no mechanism to value long term supply. People who think it’s wrong to overfish will stop, and people who don’t care will replace them as long as the market is willing to pay. What part of that require…

> cases where it seems like purely a tragedy of capitalism We have evidence the Hudson Bay was being overfished for oysters in the decades preceding European settlement. Any explanation beginning and ending with capitalism is about as useless as blaming every problem on greed.

Capitalism has been the dominant economic system for over two hundred years. It is more specifically pertinent to this time and place than some inborn human characteristic or tendency.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#368
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk to a European about that evil addiction to fossil fuel this winter.

I mean yeah, using gas to heat homes is dumb. Electrically powered heat pumps seem like the way to go.

Maybe in your part of the world. But grant me that it would be dumb to pay twice as much for electricity as for gas to heat my home to the same temperature which is the case. Heat pumps? For huge numbers of poor people across the world this a Marie Antoinette-esque gesture. I'm aware that there's no evidence she ever said words to the effect 'let them eat cakes' (people had no bread) but we all understand the metaphor.

Let's not forget that much of the cost of electricity is down to the massive costs involved in its distribution.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#369
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism, like all other idealogies that could be described as “if only everyone did X,” will never, ever be as widely-adopted as you’d like without authoritarianism driving that adoption. Also — I’m saying this as a former vegan — I have developed so many food allergies that I literally cannot be vegan anymore (the vast, vast majority of my food allergies are plants). And yes I carry an epi-pen, they can kill me, et…

Your first paragraph is probably right, just like we need laws against rape and slavery. Go back in history and you’ll find people who would have said “I can’t imagine a world without that” on those issues too. I’m all for it.

Am I misunderstanding you or are you comparing eating meat and animal products with rape and slavery?

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this is most likely not cause by over-fishing. Snow crab fishing is relatively strictly regulated since a long time, and while there are always many ways this might be side stepped the amount of missing crabs is way to high in a too short amount of time to just because of over fishing AFIK. More likely it is a combination of multiple factors putting strain on the population leading to a collapse event. One m…

Picking on you, sorry, but what do you mean when you say 'climate change'. I don't think you're saying anything, it's like saying 'bad thing'. What caused what exactly. Eg, if day warmer waters mean there is less habitat that the crabs can live in, I get that. Or if the deep, cold ocean temperatures have not changed, then that's not it. Or if the crabs have been poisoned by fertiliser, then say that. I do resent the…

I don't get the original sin rethoric at all. We made it harder for crabs to live now they are gone and we want them back. The expectation should be that humans do whatever is necessary to bring them back themselves rather than expecting the crabs to do our work for us.
Post reply on HN