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Don't Be A Free User

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Re: Don't Be A Free User

#21

Post by teaspoon »

nknight wrote: post #11

He keeps saying "free software", and also says "anti-free software movement". He means "free service", which is a radically different scenario from "free software" in either sense, and should be treated as such. Whether we're talking about Free software or just freeware, the user's use of a normal piece of software on their computer doesn't suddenly disappear when the developer goes away.

From the article:

But free web services are not like free software. If your free software project suddenly gets popular, you gain resources: testers, developers and people willing to pitch in. If your free website takes off, you lose resources.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#22

Post by quanticle »

kiba wrote: post #20

Anti-free software? I don't think free software is antithetical to the movement for charging a leg and an arm. The hard part is figuring out how to charge an arm and a leg for open source software. However, everyone take the easy way out by closing down on mission critical and open source the rest. I thought of a possible solution that allow everyone to charge an arm and leg while still being open source, or even pub…

So... er how exactly would you bootstrap this business model? Yeah, this might (with a very small probability) work if you're already an established, successful webcomics author. If you're starting out, though, you have no chances of success. Who's going to chip in for a comic that may or may not be good when it is finished?

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#23

Post by angryasian »

its a big cycle, the service will sell everyone cashes out, some other team picks up where the last service left off.

Delicious -> pinboard anyone ?

I think theres a pattern of products deteriorating after purchase for one reason or another, either not enough attention or founders leave or consumers find another product from a hot startup thats in the same space. While having a paid option should be encouraged, no service yet is something that I can't absolutely live without where theres a free alternative, and if theres something worth paying for, someone will build a free service.

I'd rather encourage users to turn off ad block on sites they like, and click on links that are relevant.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#24

Post by quanticle »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #2

To partly rebut what maciej is saying here, I'd point out that Backblaze is a very successful not-free service which was also courting purchase offers; paying for a service is no guarantee that you'll get to rely on that service forever, which is a major failing of web-based services in general (and a frequently-mentioned point from my clients when I suggest using some web-based service or another). But I mostly agre…

I will probably start paying for his page archival service within the next month. I'm more comfortable with it not only because of his track record so far, but because I know I am his customer. If it were a free service, I'd be far more concerned about how many concessions he'd be willing to make for his real customers -- advertisers or metrics companies or who-knows.

As the old saying goes, "If you're not paying, you're not the customer. You're the product." Kudos to Pinboard for asking you to become a customer, rather than settle in and be sold like a product.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#25

Post by _delirium »

garrettdimon wrote: post #13
dotBen wrote: post #4

The issue of BigCo's closing useful small services just to harvest the developers post acquisition is certainly a valid one that's worthy of debate. However, the premise that this only happens because the startup in question was "free" doesn't hold weight. Call me a cynic but the recommendation to use "paid-for" services only to avoid this outcome just seems a little too self-serving to paid-for-only service PinBoard…

I believe the point is less about revenue being a guarantee that it won't happen and more about the fact that a lack of profit makes it increasingly likely that the product will eventually be shuttered because free isn't a sustainable model.

That's the claim that I'd like to see some data to believe: are, in fact, paid cloud services more long-lasting than free or freemium services? My guess would be no, that a large number of them also go bankrupt, are acquired and shut down, pivot to other lines of work, or otherwise fail to stick around.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#26

Post by dman »

Google and Facebook are counter examples of how free can be resilient. I guess it depends on the vertical. If you are aiming to scale up to world scale being free is almost essential.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#27

Post by phillmv »

I love Pinboard, but it's a one man operation. Maciej is extremely susceptible to get hit by a bus tomorrow, leaving me without my $9.23 and all of my bookmarks.

You're telling me that if someone offered you $1-5 mil to lead a team at insert huge tech company here you'd turn it down? Bitch, please.

That chart is overall correct, but it's not like paying is suddenly going to be a panacea. I give flickr $25 a year, but I'm actively looking for replacements because it's obvious Yahoo!'s not gonna keep running it forever.

Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#28

Post by nik_0_0 »

maximusprime wrote: post #14
morisy wrote: post #3

Seeing Pinboard's success was really helpful in getting over the sick feeling of charging a sea of free, and I think we're finally seeing a non-trivial amount of web users understand that if you're not the customer, you're the product (after they've been burned a time or twelve). Great post, and glad to see a lot of other Hacker Newser following suit.

That's a false choice. Using google to search doesn't make me a "product". They just happen to be able to make a ton of money showing adverts, which are useful for me also. Ignore advertising revenue at your own cost. But OTOH, this is hackernews, so continue hating advertising lead business models as usual...

It does make you a product. Google can take the millions of you searching for that term and say "hey you people related to that term", and sell them based on the fact that you searched for it an a small percentage of you will click that advertisments. I almost feel that we are lucky that advertisements are more profitable when they are more useful to us, god forbid if A/B testing showed that FULL PAGE FLASHING BANNERS somehow brought in more revenue.

No one is ignoring advertising revenue, harvesting millions of users in order to bring in said advertising revenue is the problem.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#29

Post by cbs »

teaspoon wrote: post #21
nknight wrote: post #11

He keeps saying "free software", and also says "anti-free software movement". He means "free service", which is a radically different scenario from "free software" in either sense, and should be treated as such. Whether we're talking about Free software or just freeware, the user's use of a normal piece of software on their computer doesn't suddenly disappear when the developer goes away.

From the article: But free web services are not like free software. If your free software project suddenly gets popular, you gain resources: testers, developers and people willing to pitch in. If your free website takes off, you lose resources.

Perhaps thats a sign the webapp-for-things-that-don't-need-to-be-webapps model has flaws.

Nahhh. That can't be it.

Re: Don't Be A Free User

#30

Post by Tcepsa »

Clearly Google is going to get bought out by somebody any day now and we can kiss those searching, mapping, and mail services goodbye. As are Facebook and Twitter--better find someone that you can pay for your social networking, stat!

And obviously Hacker News isn't going to be around for long...

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