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Normalising Layoffs/Firing

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Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#241

Post by dredmorbius »

andrekandre wrote: post #95

> for countries like India where there is no social security whats the reason for that?

It's interesting to consider the way in which social welfare systems developed.

The concept originated in Imperial Germany under Otto Bismark, in the 1880s I believe, though there were precursors in Prussia and elsewhere dating to the 1840s.

In the U.S., Social Security was modeled in many ways on the Railroad Retirement Act of 1934, including the structure of account numbers (the 3-2-4 format, though RRA accounts begin with an 'R' rather than a numeric digit). This preceded the Social Security Act by only one year. The federal law was in addition to company-based pensions, which were proving problematic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Retirement_Board>

Both the RRA and SSA were passed during a deep financial crisis, the Great Depression.

India's history differs in many regards, and I'd suspect that demographics (a large youthful population) play a strong role --- family obligations can substitute for a formal federalised programme. I also suspect that India's somewhat decentralised government (many states operate with a large degree of autonomy) might make for regional programmes, say, in Kerala State, which tends to be much more progressive than other areas, though that's conjecture on my part, I'm not familiar with that aspect of Indian policy or politics.

More on contemporary Indian welfare policy here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security_in_India>

Interestingly, I've just learned via Wikipedia, India has one of the oldest welfare state traditions dating to the 3rd century BCE under emperor Ashoka:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#India>

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#242

Post by lostlogin »

scarface74 wrote: post #234
lostlogin wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’ve perfectly covered why such a protection is lacking. Schemes someone else pays for sound great, but until people agree to pay them, they don’t happen.

How is that whole depending on your employer for health care working out in the US? Why would you want to depend on them for your long term financial stability?

Healthcare in the US looks a disaster from where I am in a country with state provided healthcare.

I think I’ve been unclear - I believe taxes should pay for healthcare for everyone, and would happily pay more tax for better healthcare.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#243

Post by scarface74 »

lostlogin wrote: post #242
scarface74 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that whole depending on your employer for health care working out in the US? Why would you want to depend on them for your long term financial stability?

Healthcare in the US looks a disaster from where I am in a country with state provided healthcare. I think I’ve been unclear - I believe taxes should pay for healthcare for everyone, and would happily pay more tax for better healthcare.

No I didn’t misinterpret you. I agree healthcare in the US is a shit show and the idea of tying your health care to your employer is asinine.

I’m taking that same opinion to its logical conclusion. We already have employer funded state controlled unemployment insurance. Increase that, have companies pay more if necessary and along with untying health care from your employer, we are there.

Let private companies focus on their business.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#244

Post by mancerayder »

jlund-molfese wrote: post #40
zeruch wrote: post #4

"We have normalised firing of people." We spent decades in the US smashing unions, smashing pensions (replacing them with more volatile instruments like 401Ks) and made at-will employment dangerous for both sides of the equation. Firing has been trivialized for decades. This is not new, and the current wave is minuscule compared to 2008, 2000, and previous. The worst is yet to come.

Why would an employee in the tech sector prefer an employer-managed pension? A 401(k) usually allows me to choose what I invest my money in (including bonds), and can be rolled over to a new employer easily. And it’s my money once it’s in my account, not my employer’s money. They can’t require me to work for a certain period of time to get it out, and don’t pay me less to compensate for offering the retirement benefi…

Because an employer-provided pension has a guaranteed monthly payout forever.

It's not for nothing they killed em in favor of 401ks, themselves whittled down over the years (employer contributions going down, kicking in after a time, only getting paid at the end of year, etc).

You might be too young to remember the facts on the ground, leaving the conversation to start with, "Why would an employee in the tech sector..."

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#245

Post by Test0129 »

cyrusshepard wrote: post #94
Test0129 wrote: post #67

> We have normalised firing of people. I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security, but for countries like India where there is no social security and stigma is associated with being laid off, it is a very difficult situation. Not to sound crass here but it seems like you're fishing for virtue. Hiring and firing are normal. A company of 20,000 firing 20% of it's workforce sounds maj…

Your comment seems to assume that 1) employment levels for software engineers is the same in India 2) that the OP has overstated the social stigma of layoffs in India, and finally 3) the current employment landscape that you find yourself in will last indefinitely. Based on this, I suspect it's highly likely the hubris in this comment will not age well.

1) India is the chief exporter of software engineering for the world. There are a billion people in India (or more). So naturally on a per-population basis the number will be lower. Given that there are nearly entire towns dedicated to tech services I doubt finding a new job is difficult for those that want one. Especially given how huge labor arbitrage is in the west right now.

2) No idea. My Indian contractor coworkers never seemed to care. It's the H1Bs that panic during a layoff (understandably).

3) I don't think it will, that's why I get mine while the gettin' is good and hopefully have enough to not worry about the future whenever the FAANGs finally succeed at driving wages into the ground. However, given there are nearly 4 jobs for every engineer currently in the field according to the BLS I'm not worried at all about the next decade. I'll just continue to stack cash and re-evaluate every once in a while.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#247

Post by snovv_crash »

ttoinou wrote: post #38
snovv_crash wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's usually a considerable probation period where the firing rules are much more relaxed. Germany is typically 6 months, for example.

Doesnt that make my point ? You can easily be fired in a probation period :-) and right before the probation ends is when the employer wonders if they should keep you (really hire you for good)

After 5 months of being embedded in a team, firing someone who management doesn't like but who is popular with other employees will cause major morale issues even if they are still technically in probation.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#248

Post by lostlogin »

scarface74 wrote: post #243
lostlogin wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare in the US looks a disaster from where I am in a country with state provided healthcare. I think I’ve been unclear - I believe taxes should pay for healthcare for everyone, and would happily pay more tax for better healthcare.

No I didn’t misinterpret you. I agree healthcare in the US is a shit show and the idea of tying your health care to your employer is asinine. I’m taking that same opinion to its logical conclusion. We already have employer funded state controlled unemployment insurance. Increase that, have companies pay more if necessary and along with untying health care from your employer, we are there. Let private companies focus…

I misunderstood you. This is not that different to what happens where I am (except the taxes come from both the employer and the employee), though both need to be increased to improve unemployment benefits and healthcare.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#249

Post by smsm42 »

Firing is normal. Employment is a relationship. If the sides of the relationship are free, sometimes relationships come to an end. Is it fun for both sides? Not always. Sometimes getting dumped sucks. Sometimes divorce hurts a lot. Sometimes firing ruins your plans. But that's still normal. Nobody owes you a relationship, and the fact that you have plans for it doesn't mean the other side has the same plans. It doesn't mean one should be callous with it, but it does mean ending the relationship that doesn't work for one of the sides anymore - including employment one - is completely normal.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#250

Post by whinvik »

This is a weird comment especially since the background is that the OP is concerned about it happening in India.

For decades we have been unable to creates any jobs at all since we had strict employment hiring/firing rules. And look where that got us. The progress we made was because IT was given special provisions to make hiring/firing easier and that became a job creation machine.

If we change this, we will just go back to the previous state. Everywhere I look I see this trade-off so we can't get one without giving up the other in return.

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