Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have faced the opposite problem in India - psychiatrists insisting that they won't treat me without pills and even disparaging therapy as it "takes a long time and 'unreasonable' commitment from both patient and doctor"!
This is a core problem with all of medicine. When the treatment involves the patient changing their behavior, most doctors give up and don't bother. And yet, the majority of diseases are rooted in patient behavior.
Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
51–60 of 106 posts
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#52It's clear that the neurobiological approach focuses on correlates rather than root causes. Brain chemicals are no more the "sources" of emotions, than emotions being the source of neurochemicals. And psychoanalysis tries to weave narratives that explain behavior, but those narratives may or may not produce any insights.
Surely there's smart people who can see the basic flaws of both current approaches, and are trying to build more rigorous models of the mind's functioning?
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
"It's weird that we treat psychoactive drugs differently than other drugs. We don't have a fear of a diabetic becoming dependent on insulin or someone with high blood pressure becoming addicted to beta blockers." It not that weird. The brain is the most complicated organ in the human body. Science understands how the kidneys work but largely doesn't understand how the brain works. If you think these drugs are worth t…
I do. I equally scold anyone that says MDMA or LSD is the cure all of depression. It's not an analogy. There is no mechanical difference between someone using Amphetamines to treat their ADHD and someone using insulin to treat their diabetes. There are just as many external as internal factors that go into how someone can get diabetes and what dosage of insulin they need at a specific moment in time. Science has adva…
In contrast, mental health diseases are generally diagnosed by talking to the patient, because there is little understanding of the underlying biology.
"I am not a medical professional, I have only taken some 300 and 400/grad level courses in psychology."
Do you believe your professors would agree that the mechanism of treating ADHD is the same as treating diabetes, or that the kidney is as complicated as the brain?
"I would suggest you look into the modern state of neurophysiology and neuropsychopharmacology. The "we don't understand" is not true anymore. "
Last time I "looked into it" did not result in a belief that we understand the brain.
I just "looked into it" for a minute or two, and here's an interesting APA article from 2012 where a professor of brain science and Nobel prize laureate is stated to believe the field is where cardiology was 100 years ago. I recommend reading it:
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/06/roots
I half expect you are going to tell me, with great enthusiasm, that everything important was learned over the last 10 years.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#54‘thousands lines’ of gossip to not inform the reader about psychoanalysis… which personally i hope starts to get less and less popular! giving placebo to patients that can suicide, for me, should be considered as homicide if recommended BEFORE any other type of treatment with a rate greater than “eating blades of grass” and thinking you are cured or will be cured
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
>the painful reckoning with yourself I really don’t think this is the thing that puts people off. I think the main factor is financial cost. psychiatry is extremely expensive, and often hard to get hold of. another large part is the representation of psychiatry in films, where it’s often depicted as mimsy-whimsy dream interpretation with freudian psychobabble. thirdly I think some people assume that there is only so…
I agree that it is not the only thing that puts people off. The cost is a significant challenge. But I think it is one of the biggest factors. You even display some of it yourself in the way you refer to dream analysis and Freud. It’s not just you, psychoanalysts themselves have anxieties about delving into the uncertain, unproven speculative parts of their minds. The hatable thing about psychoanalysis is that it oft…
Yeah, the patient often feels like it's helping. But that's true of joining a cult as well.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
I do. I equally scold anyone that says MDMA or LSD is the cure all of depression. It's not an analogy. There is no mechanical difference between someone using Amphetamines to treat their ADHD and someone using insulin to treat their diabetes. There are just as many external as internal factors that go into how someone can get diabetes and what dosage of insulin they need at a specific moment in time. Science has adva…
Because the kidneys are much more simple than the brain, diabetes is diagnosed with a blood sugar test. In contrast, mental health diseases are generally diagnosed by talking to the patient, because there is little understanding of the underlying biology. "I am not a medical professional, I have only taken some 300 and 400/grad level courses in psychology." Do you believe your professors would agree that the mechanis…
I would urge you to look into the recent advances in neuroimaging.
https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/advances-in-neuroi...
https://www.additudemag.com/neuroimaging-adhd-findings-limit...
The reality is the news tools for research are still in their infancy. It's not close to the maturity that the diagnosis of diabetes and other diseases are at. But there is a very clear path forward, it's no longer theoretical.
There is still no clinical definition of insulin resistance.
And as far as ADHD and Diabetes go, yes I can confidently say the current medications and therapies that are available for Adhd can address most cases similar to how insulin does for diabetes. Treating metabolic disorders is as complex as treating ADHD. Stimulants don't "fix" ADHD any more than insulin does for diabetes.
The complication doesn't come from the lack of science, it comes from the fact that behavior and cognition is affected directly by the stimulus people are exposed to. I can't play music that will distract a kidney but I can distract a child very easily the same way.
I did read the article you listed,
"In McNally's view, there's little danger that mental health professionals will forget the importance of environmental factors to the development of mental illness. "I think what's happening is not a battle between biological and non-biological approaches, but an increasingly nuanced and sophisticated appreciation for the multiple perspectives that can illuminate the etiology of these conditions," he says.
Still, translating that nuanced view to improvements in diagnosis and treatment will take time. Despite decades of research on the causes and treatments of mental illness, patients are still suffering. "Suicide rates haven't come down. The rate of prevalence for many of these disorders, if anything, has gone up, not down. That tells you that whatever we've been doing is probably not adequate," Insel says."
He argued exactly what I am still arguing. Specific to how far out he thought these tools of diagnosis were, I would absolutely disagree. Having a Nobel prize doesn't mean his predictions are prophetic.
It's not just the field of neuroscience, the last 10 years of technology have reshaped the entire landscape of medical diagnosis and treatment. If I said that AI will be able to help diagnose cancer in the next 10 years in 2012, most people would think I was being optimistic to a fault, but that's where we are now. The fMRI was invented in 1991.
From APA, if you clicked on neuropsychology and scrolled down, you would have seen Michael Treadway’s fantastic work at Emory on the relationship between inflammation and stress and how it links to depression.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2021/09/career-lab-depression
"“What I’m seeing with my research, and that of others, is that there are many types of depression, schizophrenia, or any number of mental illnesses, each with its own source,” Treadway said. “I would really like to get to the point where we have discrete definable pathologies that are measurable, using objective tests, for different types of depression, for example, or even different symptoms of depression. That could really open up a world of new treatment possibilities.” "
I can only hope you gain some of my enthusiasm after reading some of these.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would appreciate it if you did say more. I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that psychologists hate medicine. In most cases psychologist and psychiatrist work together to provide treatment to a patient. Why would psychologists see the use of medicine as failure?
Psychiatrists prescribe medications and psychologists perform counseling. The role of prescriptive medication is to modify behavior that either increases focus or stabilizes emotionally heterogeneous states. That medication is often issued in consultation between a psychiatrist and the treating psychologist to enhance receptivity to counseling (or other social contexts) otherwise it may interfere.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
I do. I equally scold anyone that says MDMA or LSD is the cure all of depression. It's not an analogy. There is no mechanical difference between someone using Amphetamines to treat their ADHD and someone using insulin to treat their diabetes. There are just as many external as internal factors that go into how someone can get diabetes and what dosage of insulin they need at a specific moment in time. Science has adva…
“Every organ is the most complicated organ”. No, that’s blatantly untrue. The liver is one of the simpler ones as it’s all single cells, and the brain is definitely the most complex. I’ve never heard anyone say they are equally complex. That doesn’t mean we understand everything about the liver, but we are hell of a lot closer than the brain.
Taking a step back, there is only one organ I will admit we understand better than the brain, the heart. It's the only organ where we know enough to replace it with a mechanical counterpart. We don't know enough to make it last a long time, but it's enough to prolong someone's life in a meaningful way.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#59At this point, I’m afraid I’m stuck with the medication and I’ll have no way of getting off it. Who knows what it is doing to my brain chemistry?
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
Wow, if only opioid addicts did the same thing, we wouldn't be having this opioid crisis!
Fortunately for me, my doctors and nurses weren't obsessive ideologues and worked with me on a pain management program that involved opiates.
Can you imagine having to sit in that bloody bed unable to move unless you hit the button to call the nurse all while in mind blowing pain? I'll pass! You can keep your sanctimonious doctors giving you lectures. I'll keep my professionals. Big ups for the folks at Zuck SF Gen.