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What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

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Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#91
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how it is possible to be conscious of anything at all I ... have always seen that as something obvious. On a high level, isn't consciousness the result of combining a bunch of neurons (a "hardware", of sorts) in certain preexisting configuration (a "software" of sorts) and stimuli (inputs) ?. To me the problem is on the details. The separation between layers is not needed because there's no limited consciousness ne…

I think you're missing the point. A brain could encode "pleasure", and respond appropriately to that and other complex stimuli without there being anyone actually feeling that pleasure. But there is, and that's unexplained. That's not just a defect in our understanding of brains, it's something which we don't understand on the level of physics.

> A brain could encode "pleasure", and respond appropriately to that and other complex stimuli without there being anyone actually feeling that pleasure.

It could, but would that be a more efficient way to interact with the world? We see more complex brains coinciding with a greater ability to create abstractions about the world and leading to a greater flexibility when it comes to problem solving. Hard coding things occurs in simpler life forms with very limited to no ability to solve problems.

People often say "well, nature could create a p-zombie" - could it? It's far from clear that someone could hard code the types of interactions we engage in. Look at the early AI efforts and the failure to simply hard code rules there. Natural selection tends to push creatures in the direction of doing things efficiently, and it seems that our brains are no different. Despite it "feeling wrong" to some people.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#92
post #77

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Really? + Human beings + Dogs + Bugs + Plants + Eukaryotes + Viruses + Proteins + Molecules + Atoms + Subatomic Particles + ??? + Pure Information, ones and zeros Here is a line (--------). Place it so that above it, things are conscious, and below it, things are not conscious. It seems very obvious to me that there is nothing special about human beings, (or dogs, or bugs, or plants, or wherever you draw the line), t…

> because consciousness is either shared by all things; or, shared by no things. Alternative: it is shared by 192 kinds of things, and nothing else. Why not?

Indeed, why not. I couldn't possibly prove you wrong or right. That's why the hard problem does not exist and there is no line.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#93

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This argument is not "eliding" the hard problem. This argument is saying that Chalmers' hard problem does not actually exist. We have many explanations for what people describe as "the hard problem". But nobody who believes in "the hard problem" accepts these explanations, which have been given for decades by philosophers like Dennett. There is no way to reconcile your view, that there IS a hard problem and that no p…

I’m convinced at this point having read almost every book on the topic, hundreds of threads across the web, and many an in-person debate, that individuals actually have wildly different experiences of consciousness. For me, the hard problem is such an obvious and almost intractable thing that any folks who dismiss it clearly don’t understand it (or live an inner experience that lets them understand it). And because I…

It’s also extremely obvious to me we have a fundamental gap in our understanding of the universe and reality that needs to be filled to explain the hard problem. I suspect most people have fairly similar conscious experiences though, that seems like a reasonable assumption. Humans hate to not understand something, we’ve come up with crazy religions and who knows what else to explain the world around us. The reality is there’s just so much we don’t know, so much we can’t know. I think that makes most people uncomfortable.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your answers all suggest you think consciousness is computational. If we could simulate the complex computations of the brain there’s nothing else there. I’m of the opinion that consciousness is not computational but a fundamental property of the universe that we can’t explain with current physics. I believe this because I can’t adequately explain what I experience otherwise.

This is really interesting, really interested in learning more about this. Is this an opinion specific to your own understanding or a belief held by a broader group of academics?

Yes, this is a belief held by a broader group of people, but I haven't booked up on it much myself. Some quick googles for "Quantum consciousness" and "consciousness as a fundamental field" brought up some of the arguments I remembered hearing about:

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

[1] https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/video/consciousness-as-...

As I understand it, a common form of this framework is basically panpsychism, but more science-y and less metaphysics-y. Some people believe that consciousness may arise from a fundamental field in the universe just like how there's an electromagnetic field or a Higgs field. I vaguely remember hearing one theory that posits intelligent life forms are to the field of consciousness what photons/electrons are to the electromagnetic field — that is to say, spikes or clusters of energy in the field that stand out drastically against the background noise.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument you're making is just eliding the "hard problem". We can trivially imagine an electronic circuit that registers different current levels when exposed to red or blue light. Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit, despite the fact that it "senses" different frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. The circuit is qualia-free. You, on the other hand,…

We don't know what qualia are so it's an acceptable possibility to me (unprovable, mind) that such a circuit may 'experience' something. It would be unutterably basic if it happened, nonetheless I'm ok with that. There's also a view that consciousness is intrinsic to everything (ah, here you go https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-consciousnes... ) which is a cheap, cheesy and IMO totally unacceptable way…

> We don't know what qualia are

Actually, no. This is the one part of the problem we are clear on.

Since this is an adequate excuse to give a lecture, here we go:

Suppose I say "I am fat", and suppose you say of me "he is fat". In both of these sentences, the same thing is meant - an observation of the physical world was made, and excess lipids were detected. However, if I say "I am looking at a laptop", and you say "he is looking at a laptop", we don't mean the same thing. You mean that a particular physical state has been observed, with my eyeballs and brain directed laptopwards. Whereas what I mean...

...well, what I certainly don't mean is that I see any eyeballs, or brain. I don't observe any process of looking at all. I just look. What I mean by "I am looking" is completely different to what you mean by "he is looking" even though the two statements are formally similar.

In other words, there are two wildly different, incommensurable uses of the word "am". One of them has a corresponding "is", one of them does not.

So, getting back to qualia, there simply are no qualia. There are qualia that am, but as noted above, that doesn't imply that there are qualia that are.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#96
post #55

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What you call “experience” for me is just sensing of internal information processing, of internal representations. This may need some dedicated introspection to fully realize. You’re making a distinction which I believe is a mirage. It’s just a special attributation we make in our minds to those inner perceptions. If you look closely, it vanishes. Think about it: How do you know that you have what you call an “experi…

> "just sensing of ..." We know that physical systems can sense phenomena in the world. We doubt that they experience anything when they do so. Even if we create a Hofstadterian "strange loop" so that we sense our own sensing, that does not give rise to "experience". I concede that it could be a matter of scale, but a photosensor that knows that it glows yellow when it senses red does not have an experience.

I dispute that "experience" is something that requires a special explanation. The feeling of what you call "experience" is just something that you sense inside your brain. It is just content, data, like thoughts and other perceptions are as well. You are thinking about it. You are thinking about how you feel about it. You have perceptions about your thinking of how you feel about it. Is your cognition able to process anything that isn't (mere) information/data? I don't believe mine is. What would that even mean?

Yes, a photosensor doesn't have that kind of sensation, and that's because there is nothing going on inside of it that would correspond to that sensation (no neural correlate, so to speak). In the humain brain there is enough that is going on (the complexity and quantity is staggering) that our range of inner experience is easily representable by it. And "experiencing" merely means that we are processing those representations in a way that enters our cognition, like "mere" perceptions do as well.

It seems that you are thinking that perceptions lead to experience, and then nothing else. My view is that perceptions lead to internal processing that in turn is itself perceived by our cognition, in addition to the original perceptions. And it's the texture of this perceived processing that we call "experiencing". That is, it doesn't stop at the "experience" step, because then we wouldn't know anything about it. Instead, the information about the experience then enters our cognitive processing as a subsequent step. And that's how we don't perceive just "red" full stop, but also an associated "experience" of the red. But again, we wouldn't know about that experience if that wasn't information that enters our mind. And I see no puzzle about such information entering our mind.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know if the people to your left or right experience sensations the same way you do? When they look at the sky does their mind paint the sky with the same color?

Scientific method was created for this

False. It's unfalsifiable. There is no experiment possible that you can set up to answer these questions, any more than you can construct an experiment to prove whether there is a God.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Dennett's book "Consciousness Explained", the Aeon article falls into the category of explaining what we are conscious of , not how it is possible to be conscious of anything at all. It does not really tackle Chalmers "hard problem of consciousness", despite the subtitle.

Dennett most certainly tackles the "hard problem", by convincingly arguing the problem is ill-defined and not a real problem. The "hard problem" is not some Riemann Hypothesis of philosophy. Its status as a problem to be solved is highly contentious.

Does he answer the question “why qualia, of any kind, ever?”

> Dennett most certainly tackles the "hard problem", by convincingly arguing the problem is ill-defined and not a real problem.

No, like everyone else he admits defeat before it and tries to define it away. Whatever the relationship between qualia and physical reality, we experience them (I do. Dennett might not, haha) which requires some explanation. Once you have that everything else is easy, but there’s no reason for there to be an experience at all.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#99
To me, David Chalmer is really overrated as a philosopher and so are his ideas about consciousness.

Essentially everything is an example of emergence and this is no different. Yes we absolutely do need to have words like "chair" as a level of abstraction. Yes we do need the word "consciousness" to talk about this quality/ability humans have which is so hard to describe but encompasses self awareness and experience (both also emergent).

Underlying all these emergent phenomenon is always what Chalmers brushes off as easy. What he'd probably describe as the world of matter/energy and quantum physics.

Here's a variation of a common thought experiment: Remove every atom from a person's brain, one by one until they are clinically dead. Somewhere along the way to death, that person is going to be right on the cusp of being a conscious human being. It wouldn't be a single moment. There would be a long period of removing atoms where observers could have endless debates about when the lights go out. Think of some very gradually going colorblind. Just like a gradient of color blindness, there would be a gradient of consciousness. From normal levels, to octopus levels (not literally), to newborn baby levels, bug level, etc until death.

This makes it clear to me that consciousness truly is emergent from matter/energy. There's no magic behind it, just mystery because we don't understand it.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#100
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested in your response to the following thought experiment: After years of heroic work and ingenious insights, along with a lot of technological progress, we "solve" the "easy" problem of consciousness in the following (I admit implausibly in any foreseeable future) strong sense: (Note: I'm going into quite a lot of detail because I think that when people say things like "understanding how the machine…

There's too much here to really reply to, but I will say this: 1. the existence of GPT3 and its cousins I think comes close to, if not actually proving, then severely tilting the scale in favor of "you do not need consciousness or qualia to participate in relatively human conversation and self-reporting". This means that scenarios where you interrogate a system to see what it thinks are going to rapidly become less a…

The point of my thought experiment isn't "a computer does something relatively human", it's "a computer does the same things a human does at the level of neuron activations, leading to the same things a human does at the level of actual actions".

And the point isn't "can you deny that the simulation has qualia?" (though I do find denying that pretty implausible); it's that it feels pretty clear to me that having the level of understanding that would be demonstrated by such a simulation-plus-analysis would in fact constitute a solution to the "hard problem".

(Of course, that would be entirely irrelevant for anyone who believes that my scenario is impossible in principle. For instance, if someone thinks that humans don't think with their brains but with their immaterial souls, they should predict that all attempts to do the sort of thing I describe will end in failure: you might get the machine do do exactly what the brain-meat does, but that won't lead to human-like behaviour because human-like behaviour is enabled by human-like souls which the simulator doesn't have.)

My maybe-uncharitable view is that the "hard problem" is "hard" because it is not really a problem so much as it is a decision to refuse ever to admit that we understand. No matter how detailed and complete an explanation we might have of human consciousness, you can always say "nope, that doesn't explain why there's anything it feels like for me to eat a perfectly ripe peach". Even if (as in my fanciful scenario) that explanation enables us to trace every detail of the processes that lead from being eating the peach to saying "mmmm, that's delicious", to wanting to buy more peaches in future, to rhapsodizing about how no mechanical explanation could ever do justice to the experience, etc. Even if (again, as in my fanciful scenario) the explanation lets us identify (down to the level of neuron-activations) what is common between the experience of eating a peach and the experience of eating a plum, what is different between the experience of eating a ripe peach and the experience of eating a not-so-ripe one, what is shared by all experiences of seeing something a bright scarlet colour, and so forth.

To me, this all seems like saying that gravity is ineffable, that although we can write down Newton's or Einstein's equations and compute exactly what happens when two massive bodies are near one another, there's still always something left unexplained. I can imagine, I say, things that behave according to the same equations but don't really have mass: they might instead have not actual mass but some mere facsimile of the real thing. Or that chess is ineffable, that although a machine can choose chess moves (and beat grandmasters) it isn't really playing chess but doing some mere facsimile of chess-playing. And one can go through the same manoeuvre with any concept at all. Consider the Hard Problem of Trousers: we may be able to analyse the way in which pieces of fabric are made and shaped and put together to make trousers, but that still leaves completely unanswered the question of why the resulting object is a pair of trousers. After all, I insist, I can imagine taking exactly the same pieces of fabric and putting them together the same way to make something that could be worn like trousers but that aren't really trousers...

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