Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
theguardian.com
Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
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Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#2Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing.
> Ray’s mother asked the Lodge to give him antidepressants. But to the Lodge psychiatrists the premise of this form of treatment – to be cured without insight into what had gone wrong – seemed superficial and cheap. Drugs “might bring about some symptomatic relief”, Ross, Ray’s psychiatrist, acknowledged, “but it isn’t going to be anything solid in which he can say, ‘Hey, I’m a better man. I can tolerate feelings.’”
I remember a HN comment from trained pharmacist (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32103546) that argues the same thing: “I promise you that no drug that you can take can make any permanent changes to edit your mind”
Ray looked at two different stories about his illness, the psychoanalytic and the neurobiological, but both "failed him". I would say that the psychoanalytic story has a better chance of explaining his case, but for some reason he wasn't receptive to it.
Relatedly, the chemical imbalance theory of depression was disproved in a popular study published two months ago. Here is a good summary: https://youtu.be/TZhgvr2rbwE. But SSRI are still effective, at least in reducing symptoms. We basically don't understand why and how they work.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#3How good are we at explaining large ML model outputs?
My understanding is not very good?
And that is with us having a very deep understanding of the hardware, software, algorithms, and mathematics involved.
Now let’s suppose that you run your ML model on a computer and you get bad results.
Two experts show up. One says that you have a faulty memory chip and that they can fix what is wrong with the memory chip and then the model should work.
The other says that because of the training data the model was exposed to, some of the weights are bad, and by providing focused new data for the model to train with, they can adjust those weights so the model produces better output.
While you are deciding, these two then get into a big fight each accusing the other of being a charlatan.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#4‘thousands lines’ of gossip to not inform the reader about psychoanalysis…
which personally i hope starts to get less and less popular! giving placebo to patients that can suicide, for me, should be considered as homicide if recommended BEFORE any other type of treatment with a rate greater than “eating blades of grass” and thinking you are cured or will be cured
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#5Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing. > Ray’s mother asked the Lodge to give him antidepressants. But to the Lodge psychiatrists the premise of this form of treatment – to be cured without insight into what had gone wrong – seemed superficial and cheap. Drugs “might bring about some symptomatic relief”, Ross, Ray’s psychiatrist, acknowledged, “but it isn’t going to be anything solid in which he can say, ‘Hey, I’m a…
While what they're saying is true, to me it rings just as misguided as not taking pain medicine when you have a broken leg until it has properly set first.
Medication for neurological issues isn't and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all but can indeed be a way to manage the issues at hand while teaching the tools needed to deal with the symptoms via therapy if possible.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#6Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing. > Ray’s mother asked the Lodge to give him antidepressants. But to the Lodge psychiatrists the premise of this form of treatment – to be cured without insight into what had gone wrong – seemed superficial and cheap. Drugs “might bring about some symptomatic relief”, Ross, Ray’s psychiatrist, acknowledged, “but it isn’t going to be anything solid in which he can say, ‘Hey, I’m a…
While what they're saying is true, to me it rings just as misguided as not taking pain medicine when you have a broken leg until it has properly set first. Medication for neurological issues isn't and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all but can indeed be a way to manage the issues at hand while teaching the tools needed to deal with the symptoms via therapy if possible.
There are always side effects and there is a real fear by many that they will be dependent on those drugs and have to live with the real side effects.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
While what they're saying is true, to me it rings just as misguided as not taking pain medicine when you have a broken leg until it has properly set first. Medication for neurological issues isn't and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all but can indeed be a way to manage the issues at hand while teaching the tools needed to deal with the symptoms via therapy if possible.
There are always side effects and there is a real fear by many that they will be dependent on those drugs and have to live with the real side effects.
It's weird that we treat psychoactive drugs differently than other drugs. We don't have a fear of a diabetic becoming dependent on insulin or someone with high blood pressure becoming addicted to beta blockers. There are side effects is a bad generalization of all drugs used to treat mental health issues. When I say I am taking beta blockers, most people comment on how I am a bit young to be taking them, but when I was prescribed benzos for the same condition, everyone decided to become my doctor and tell me what I should and shouldn't take. Endless stories about how then knew someone who got addicted to pain killers and became homeless and how they heard benzos are just as bad. I chose to switch off benzos to beta blockers.
Doctors and the patient are the best judge for the benefits and risks of living with certain conditions vs being medicated for them. In most cases there aren't side effects.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
While what they're saying is true, to me it rings just as misguided as not taking pain medicine when you have a broken leg until it has properly set first. Medication for neurological issues isn't and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all but can indeed be a way to manage the issues at hand while teaching the tools needed to deal with the symptoms via therapy if possible.
There are always side effects and there is a real fear by many that they will be dependent on those drugs and have to live with the real side effects.
You can also get addicted to pain killers. They still can help, but are surely no long term solution.
Antidepressants fall in the same category for me, even though I always avoided them. But if things are really dark, I would use any tool.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#9Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing. > Ray’s mother asked the Lodge to give him antidepressants. But to the Lodge psychiatrists the premise of this form of treatment – to be cured without insight into what had gone wrong – seemed superficial and cheap. Drugs “might bring about some symptomatic relief”, Ross, Ray’s psychiatrist, acknowledged, “but it isn’t going to be anything solid in which he can say, ‘Hey, I’m a…
While what they're saying is true, to me it rings just as misguided as not taking pain medicine when you have a broken leg until it has properly set first. Medication for neurological issues isn't and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all but can indeed be a way to manage the issues at hand while teaching the tools needed to deal with the symptoms via therapy if possible.
Nobody is doing studies to prove that morphine works better than placebo.
Re: Psychiatry Wars: a lawsuit that put psychoanalysis on trial
#10Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing. > Ray’s mother asked the Lodge to give him antidepressants. But to the Lodge psychiatrists the premise of this form of treatment – to be cured without insight into what had gone wrong – seemed superficial and cheap. Drugs “might bring about some symptomatic relief”, Ross, Ray’s psychiatrist, acknowledged, “but it isn’t going to be anything solid in which he can say, ‘Hey, I’m a…
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