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Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

tvpworld.com

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Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#181

Post by skissane »

8ytecoder wrote: post #103
CodeSgt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly think Alex Jones's speech inflicted a billion dollars worth of damage? I'd love to see an itemized bill demonstrating that. If he actually did cause that much real damage, sure, it would be fair. But I can't possibly conceive how he would have caused even $100k in real damages, much less a billion. It's equally, if not more dangerous, to fine people ludicrously large, arbitrary amounts of money because t…

That’s what the jury evaluated and decided. Looks like you have an issue with the jury system itself.

The US is an outlier in letting juries hand down such massive damages awards. In most other common law countries, the jury only decides which side wins, and damages are up to the judge-and judges generally show a preference for more reasonable amounts.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#182

Post by orwin »

cr4nberry wrote: post #170
barbariangrunge wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is how we can keep our own countries from going down similar routes? With tech being what it is, it will become harder and harder to resist the state over time, so we will need better and better ways of keeping our houses in order so that things will not “decay,” to use a slightly classical term With ai and surveillance / mass-manipulation tech, it will be extremely hard to come back from authoritarianis…

The authoritarianism won't come from the government, it will come from the people around you. It's honestly terrifying how fast the media whipped up the craziness a year or two ago. It makes me wonder how much harder they shilled to shame people into the military during wartime. I remember reading Céline's Journey to the End of the Night and getting disgusted at how the state and media managed to screw that many peop…

> The authoritarianism won't come from the government, it will come from the people around you.

Exactly. If it wasn't for those cop shows, the government would be more critical of them. Media and pop culture seems to be the driver for any societal change. Even for Covid vaccine obligation the idea came from the media first (i'm not antivax or anything, i am also pro vaccinal obligation for public schools to be clear, i'm not even against mRNA vaccine, it is just that i understand that people can be shy to test brand new vaccines).

I am forever wary of any mass media privately owned.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#183

Post by skissane »

enraged_camel wrote: post #79
animitronix wrote: post #10

Time to remove Turkey from NATO

There is literally zero mechanisms for removing countries from NATO. They have to leave on their own accord (which they obviously won't do, since membership provides immense benefits).

You absolutely can expel a country from NATO - just get all the other member states to agree on it, it will happen.

People will say that “there is no provision in the NATO Charter to expel a member”-but that doesn’t actually matter. If all the other member states agree on it, the secretary-general will implement the decision. If the expelled state wants to claim that is illegal-there is no court with jurisdiction to hear their claim.

To give an extreme hypothetical, if Turkey commenced an invasion of Greece, they’d be expelled from NATO within hours. Nobody would care about the legal niceties-they’d leave that to international law professors to debate for decades to come.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#184

Post by dragonwriter »

skissane wrote: post #183
enraged_camel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is literally zero mechanisms for removing countries from NATO. They have to leave on their own accord (which they obviously won't do, since membership provides immense benefits).

You absolutely can expel a country from NATO - just get all the other member states to agree on it, it will happen. People will say that “there is no provision in the NATO Charter to expel a member”-but that doesn’t actually matter. If all the other member states agree on it, the secretary-general will implement the decision. If the expelled state wants to claim that is illegal-there is no court with jurisdiction to…

> If the expelled state wants to claim that is illegal-there is no court with jurisdiction to hear their claim.

The ICJ has jurisdiction to hear treaty violation cases between states, but no one to rely on to enforce their decisions.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#185

Post by skissane »

dragonwriter wrote: post #184
skissane wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You absolutely can expel a country from NATO - just get all the other member states to agree on it, it will happen. People will say that “there is no provision in the NATO Charter to expel a member”-but that doesn’t actually matter. If all the other member states agree on it, the secretary-general will implement the decision. If the expelled state wants to claim that is illegal-there is no court with jurisdiction to…

> If the expelled state wants to claim that is illegal-there is no court with jurisdiction to hear their claim. The ICJ has jurisdiction to hear treaty violation cases between states, but no one to rely on to enforce their decisions.

The ICJ only has jurisdiction to hear cases where either (1) the treaty in question explicitly grants it jurisdiction; (2) a state has lodged a declaration with the ICJ accepting its jurisdiction in general; or (3) the states agree to the ICJ resolving this particular dispute.

For NATO, (1) is not applicable-there is no clause in the North Atlantic Treaty granting the ICJ jurisdiction. (3) is very unlikely-if NATO member states decided to expel a member, why would they voluntarily agree to let the expellee challenge the decision in court?

For (2), several NATO states - the US is one - have withdrawn their general acceptance of ICJ jurisdiction (or never accepted it to begin with). Even for those who do accept it, the ICJ’s case law says that it cannot hear a case unless all involved states are either subject to, or voluntarily accept, its jurisdiction. It would consider all NATO member states to be involved states, so it could only hear the case if they all consented to it-not happening.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#186

Post by hotpotamus »

CodeSgt wrote: post #75
rlpb wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly, because this is a civil matter and not a criminal one, there is no protection against double jeopardy. He can keep getting sued over and over for the same thing. Not by the same people, though. If he damaged ten people, he might owe damages to each of those ten people. That doesn't sound like a problem to me. > Second, fining someone a billion dollars is just ludicrous. It seems like your argument is that…

Do you truly think Alex Jones's speech inflicted a billion dollars worth of damage? I'd love to see an itemized bill demonstrating that. If he actually did cause that much real damage, sure, it would be fair. But I can't possibly conceive how he would have caused even $100k in real damages, much less a billion. It's equally, if not more dangerous, to fine people ludicrously large, arbitrary amounts of money because t…

They say the love of a child is priceless. You might think that priceless means worthless, but others can disagree; in a sense I agree with you that it's quite difficult to nail down. Perhaps the lesson is that one should be careful when doing intangible harm to others?

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#187

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

8ytecoder wrote: post #103
CodeSgt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly think Alex Jones's speech inflicted a billion dollars worth of damage? I'd love to see an itemized bill demonstrating that. If he actually did cause that much real damage, sure, it would be fair. But I can't possibly conceive how he would have caused even $100k in real damages, much less a billion. It's equally, if not more dangerous, to fine people ludicrously large, arbitrary amounts of money because t…

That’s what the jury evaluated and decided. Looks like you have an issue with the jury system itself.

>”Looks like you have an issue with the jury system itself.”

Wanting to reform an aspect of the jury system does not invalidate it as a whole.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#188

Post by dmix »

Kukumber wrote: post #173
dmix wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One side of what?

Quoted post unavailable.

Nothing is lamer than telling someone to read a book in order to understand their internet comment (let alone a religious text).

But obviously you’re just dodging, stating an opinionated piece of information while pretending you’re just stating facts. Just be honest and say what you mean.

I have a feeling it can be reduced to the usual “US is also bad” misdirection which is a favourite of Turkey (and China and Iran and Venezuela and Russia) whenever they do anything abusive. That’s never an excuse.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#189

Post by Kukumber »

dmix wrote: post #188
Kukumber wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Nothing is lamer than telling someone to read a book in order to understand their internet comment (let alone a religious text). But obviously you’re just dodging, stating an opinionated piece of information while pretending you’re just stating facts. Just be honest and say what you mean. I have a feeling it can be reduced to the usual “US is also bad” misdirection which is a favourite of Turkey (and China and Iran a…

No post body was provided.

Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’

#190

Post by CodeSgt »

hotpotamus wrote: post #186
CodeSgt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly think Alex Jones's speech inflicted a billion dollars worth of damage? I'd love to see an itemized bill demonstrating that. If he actually did cause that much real damage, sure, it would be fair. But I can't possibly conceive how he would have caused even $100k in real damages, much less a billion. It's equally, if not more dangerous, to fine people ludicrously large, arbitrary amounts of money because t…

They say the love of a child is priceless. You might think that priceless means worthless, but others can disagree; in a sense I agree with you that it's quite difficult to nail down. Perhaps the lesson is that one should be careful when doing intangible harm to others?

That seems like the definition of a slippery slope, and not the fallacy. How do you ever quantify "intangible harm". If I make a YouTube video and call a bunch of people peepee poopoo heads and they actually experience genuine emotional trauma from such an abhorrent act, am I then liable for paying them hundreds of millions?

I'm not saying that emotional damage isn't very real and devastating, but it's certainly not something on which our courts should base their outcomes. It's too subjective, not provable, and very difficult to quantify.

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