Time to remove Turkey from NATO
Come now. Human progress is not linear and even enlightened countries take small steps backwards sometimes. This law is bad but it's also not nation-destroying.
Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
141–150 of 225 posts
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
Government messaging around this was poor all around. In many places masks were pushed to "protect yourself" (so half the people would automatically not do it out of machismo) rather than "protect others" (which is how regular masks mostly work in reality). Vaccines fully preventing transmission is also technically not true, personally I never watched the news and only skimmed the actual studies so I knew it but a lo…
There was a lot of mixed messaging rom governments, but frankly that was largely because for the first 6 months to a year we knew very little about the virus. A lot of recommendations and policy was based on best estimates and working assumptions, and some of these turned out to be wrong. Mistakes were made, lockdowns were introduced earlier or later than they should have been, assumptions about transmissibility were…
I mean messaging even long after the research was published, but yeah.
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#143So this is ludicrous and hazardous for the obvious reasons. And mirrors recent trends in media, social and otherwise, here in USA. Control of information by a crew of rich guys is bad. Control by the vast mob of malleable munchkins is worse. I actually think that, on the whole-society scale, less control is the desirable course here. Let individuals do their own filtering. Or not. Give chaos a chance.
We could do the same with physical violence. Stop judging and let individuals make their own choices. The problem in both cases is obvious. When people can take actions that benefit themselves despite (and often because of) negative repercussions to others, many people are not going to “filter” themselves
I see two defects in your reasoning.
First, our understanding of what constitutes physical violence is relatively reliable. Whereas our understanding of what constitutes misinformation is relatively unreliable. Therefore any comprehensive dictatorship of information would be relatively extremely more disastrous.
Second, misinformation is self-limiting in its effects. If it is misinformation then those who consume and communicate it will be relatively weak and disorganized. Whereas those who consume and communicate good information will be relatively strong and organized.
The present state of the mob versus the corporation is a clear example of that. The mob has the numbers but nevertheless, the corporation wins. Because the corporation is organized and the mob is disorganized.
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#144I see a lot of people critical of Turkey... and I agree. But the US is not too far away. See AB-2098 in California just signed by governor / likely presidential nominee Gavin Newson [1] which basically gives the state the ability to revoke medical licenses for spreading "false information that is contradicted by contemporary scientific contrary to the standard of care" (in other words, go against the CDC or other sta…
Yeah, this is especially an issue as certain forms of medical care gets politicized. If a doctor is obviously telling people that cigarettes are healthy and alcohol abuse if the key to a long life then of course they probably should have their license revoked. If a doctor isn't certain of the literature or has moral objections to prescribing hormones to trans teenagers, well that one is up for debate. Similarly see A…
He wasn't fined, he was held civilly liable for damages.
Perhaps the problem is that the fine accrues only to him and his production company; really there were a lot of people involved in spreading lies about Sandy Hook, and their production and distribution. Or that US lawsuits can produce spectacular punitive damages numbers on flimsy justification.
But winning libel suits is really unusual in the US! Here's Sarah Palin losing a lawsuit this year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60396231
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Alex Jones isn't the story you think it is. There are procedures to follow in a lawsuit such as discovery. If you intentionally do not follow them then you get in trouble. He may have been able to muster a "I only said things"/ free speech defense if he actually was trying to defend himself in court. Instead he didn't participate in the lawsuit and the other party that did is assumed to be correct. > [1] In both the…
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure if I see how this changes the fundamental nature of the lawsuit. "Spreading disinformation", whether you profit from it or not, is really just "Speaking your incorrect opinion out loud" in a more negative light. The basis of the lawsuit was "This man said things that made me upset". And yeah, they were rightfully upset, but it's something that I think any court in a count…
Is your position basically that I should be able to post "CodeSgt is a sex offender and murderer" signs around your neighbourhood, and to your employer and social circle, and this is completely fine because it only has the effect of making you "upset"?
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is this NATO’s responsibility? Is NATO the global democracy enforcer?
Greece is a nato country Nato, in its webpage, does in fact state it has political purpose too https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html
Sorry, I meant policing Turkey's internal behavior.
If they attacked another NATO country then obviously it would mean Article 5 gets invoked. The "political purpose" of NATO, as written, has to do with cooperating on defense related matters. I don't know where one would get the idea that it gives NATO the authority to tell other members how to run their internal domestic affairs.
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#147I see a lot of people critical of Turkey... and I agree. But the US is not too far away. See AB-2098 in California just signed by governor / likely presidential nominee Gavin Newson [1] which basically gives the state the ability to revoke medical licenses for spreading "false information that is contradicted by contemporary scientific contrary to the standard of care" (in other words, go against the CDC or other sta…
Yet California allows religious exemptions for vaccines. I wonder what “contemporary scientific consensus“ that falls under. For the record, I think non medical exemptions for mandatory vaccines are nonsense.
Sure but it doesn’t make sense to fight a battle that you’re going to lose. No one is dumb enough to jeopardize a political career for a losing battle.
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#148Isn't this what people want through the world? Control and ban fake news. Defined as what those currently in power think. Also, only three years? Isn't that very soft thinking how destructive fake news can be?
From the actions of Twitter, FB, TT, YT, etc., yes, it seems that this is what people want, with the proviso that _they_ are the ones that set the rules for what is allowable and what is censorable. To this day, if you have an opinion that is against mainstream regarding Covid, you risk getting banned. So health and political themes are moderately moderated for deviance. And by moderately I mean lots gets through jus…
> if you have an opinion that is against mainstream regarding Covid, you risk getting banned.
What is a good example of non-mainstream COVID speech that has gotten someone banned? (Not saying it doesn’t exist, I’m just wondering what’s a good example you have in mind)
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Greece is a nato country Nato, in its webpage, does in fact state it has political purpose too https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html
Sorry, I meant policing Turkey's internal behavior. If they attacked another NATO country then obviously it would mean Article 5 gets invoked. The "political purpose" of NATO, as written, has to do with cooperating on defense related matters. I don't know where one would get the idea that it gives NATO the authority to tell other members how to run their internal domestic affairs.
> NATO promotes democratic values
Re: Turkey adopts media law jailing for spreading ‘disinformation’
#150The world would, without a doubt, be a better place if politicians, news organizations, influencers/celebrities, etc. did not lie to the masses. It would also likely be a much quieter place, in that some of these entities would not be able to produce so much content due to the need to corroborate before posting, printing or opening their mouths. Some would be silent, because a lot of these people are truly ignorant a…
Let me start by saying that I agree with you on the whole and with most particulars. Being a contrarian, however, please indulge me in my attempt to steelman an opposing view; the ancient fascination with the Noble Lie. It's present as far back as Plato's Republic; the idea that an accurate communication of truth is not ideal for the preservation of a society. Rather, he advocated for the guardians and rulers of the…
A quick thank you for your reply. I really enjoyed reading it. I wish more people on HN would take the time to agree or disagree with intelligence rather than the cult-like or ideologically-driven chains of comments often seen surrounding certain topics.
I'm at work. I'll have to come back later to actually reply to your comment. The quality and content of your reply required that I tack a moment to at least acknowledge it. I like it. Thanks for taking the time to post it.