"I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security"
People don't autmatically get paid if they lose their jobs. Welcome to reality, OP.
Normalising Layoffs/Firing
201–210 of 253 posts
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#202> We have normalised firing of people. I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security, but for countries like India where there is no social security and stigma is associated with being laid off, it is a very difficult situation. Not to sound crass here but it seems like you're fishing for virtue. Hiring and firing are normal. A company of 20,000 firing 20% of it's workforce sounds maj…
> This industry is nothing like the factories.
You seem to ignore both the trend shifts in factory jobs and software jobs. Factory workers once had exactly the same status as you describe here:
> 99% of these people will be able to take two weeks of free time and find another job for the same (or often better) pay
Also, software engineers (at the big scale) are slowly but steadily loosing the glorious position in the workforce market they once had.
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But never since the first day that I stepped into an office as a professional software developer in June of 1996 did I “plan a future” with a company. You're missing the point. It's that you're planning your future on having income from the company you currently work for. In Europe they can't pull the rug from under you and say "good luck with your mortgage, you're fired today". Instead they have to say "you are fi…
I am planning my future based on having marketable skills, an up to date resume, an up to date “career document”, and a strong network that I keep active. > In Europe they can't pull the rug from under you and say "good luck with your mortgage, you're fired today". I’ll take the tradeoff of much lower taxes and much higher pay any day. > Instead they have to say "you are fired, but will receive 3 months of pay while…
> I’ll take the tradeoff of much lower taxes and much higher pay any day.
Taxes are not (only) because of that. In fact, the employer needs to pay those 3 months often.
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#204My 2c:
1) If you have a good job (like, more senior positions in software engineering, that pay 2x to 10x what other people make) you should be prepared for them to vanish at some time. But risk is compensated by reward.
2) I still despise large public layoffs, because they take bargaining power from me. Put me on a 6-month PIP, then I know I should leave, I’ll find another job.
3) People that suffer are those in tech sector (risk) but non-tech jobs that don’t always command a good wage. So, they take the risk without the reward.
4) Normalization of layoffs is terrible for lower-paying, non-specialized jobs where finding another is hard and you cannot create a buffer for yourself. That should always be exceptional.
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#205Depends on the country and sector. Where I work it’s pretty much impossible to fire people. Worst case, positions with older employees are phased out (which still sucks for the teams). That means employees get offered nice retirement packages which they don’t have to accept (but usually do).
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could not agree more. My grandfather retired 5 years early because if he didn’t, he would lose his pension due to a GE merger. Just lose the whole pension — versus a 401k where his accrued benefits would now be under his own control. Arguably, his pension terms were probably better, but pensions seem like pretty thin ice with no control or flexibility to my perspective. I’m not super well informed on what his options…
Keep in mind that a 401k is almost all funded with your own money. The amount going into the 401k is deducted from your paycheck... you can see it in one of the boxes. A pension, on the other hand, was funded by the company. And that is the exact reason there are so few defined-benefit pensions today in the private sector. These things were so incredibly generous that they are potentially bankrupting the original com…
While this is true, the company could just pay you $18,500 less and put that in your pension. Benefits are fungible.
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calling the EU Europe is made on purpose to conflate the two and make it obvious that all countries should unite into this political union. I think it is very useful to point that to people who conflate the two terms
I think that's putting words into peoples' mouths.
It's an ideology in favor of the European Union
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But never since the first day that I stepped into an office as a professional software developer in June of 1996 did I “plan a future” with a company. You're missing the point. It's that you're planning your future on having income from the company you currently work for. In Europe they can't pull the rug from under you and say "good luck with your mortgage, you're fired today". Instead they have to say "you are fi…
I am planning my future based on having marketable skills, an up to date resume, an up to date “career document”, and a strong network that I keep active. > In Europe they can't pull the rug from under you and say "good luck with your mortgage, you're fired today". I’ll take the tradeoff of much lower taxes and much higher pay any day. > Instead they have to say "you are fired, but will receive 3 months of pay while…
You're speaking from a position of privilege. I'd like everyone to have this safety. Not just people like me having a well-paid job.
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am planning my future based on having marketable skills, an up to date resume, an up to date “career document”, and a strong network that I keep active. > In Europe they can't pull the rug from under you and say "good luck with your mortgage, you're fired today". I’ll take the tradeoff of much lower taxes and much higher pay any day. > Instead they have to say "you are fired, but will receive 3 months of pay while…
You're speaking from a position of privilege. I'd like everyone to have this safety. Not just people like me having a well-paid job.
That safety net is a societal issue and should be handled by the government - not private industry
Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In Europe where firing is almost impossible Assuming you mean the European Union by "Europe", this is 27 countries with 27 labour laws. I don't think this can be generalized. Only trade laws were unified in the EU. The labour laws diversity is made even wider if you include non EU countries like Switzerland or the Balkans. Just as an example Denmark follows the concept of Flexisecurity[1], easy to fire, but there i…
No I meant the geographical area. The EU is called the EU, the two should never be confused. Good for Denmark ! Generalizations are never true. Specialized descriptions with all the cases covered on the other hand, are never read.
> Generalizations are never true. Specialized descriptions with all the cases covered on the other hand, are never read.
The wording of this struck me; is it better to lie than to go unheard?