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Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

complang.tuwien.ac.at

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Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#101

Post by wruza »

mrtksn wrote: post #20

So the "movement" against modern browser features is not a movement and has nothing to do with these features but its simply a version of "kids these days lost their ways" thinking. A version of conservatism, I guess. "Everything was better in the good old days" and "The new generation is horrible, the humanity is doomed" kind of thoughts are probably a manifestation of fading youth.

Young me (win95-2k era) had this feeling after researching into older software principles. I think that it is not [only] the effect of personal aging, but also piling up of a junk on top of an initial simple idea in any area. We just tend to notice that with years because everything straightforward-back-then becomes complicated, and straightforward-today flies under the radar.

But for browsers there is an obvious need for apps that are not “vb in an empty vba-enabled document”. This ugly heap is only stable because an enormous effort and skill goes into making it so.

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#102

Post by mellavora »

olalonde wrote: post #78
dkarl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And companies writing the software that average people use are motivated solely by "what the average Joe wants," where "what the average Joe wants" is defined by business metrics like "how much is Joe clicking" and "how much is Joe spending."

I assume you don't believe this is a good thing? How would you measure "what the average Joe wants"?

Well, if you look at i.e. Meta, which specifically optimised for getting people to 'click' more, it is clear that they did so by building a product with disastrous impacts on mental health.

So there is at least one example where it isn't a good thing.

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#103

Post by narag »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #70

I still use this strategy, though these days, I primarily use Mosaic and Netscape for testing. I tend to browse without JavaScript enabled, except for places I already trust to not abuse it. And if there is anything blocking me from accessing the page, such as a modal dialog, a cookie notice, a survey, a prompt to sign up for the newsletter, I close the tab. Over time, I have found that type of rude lack of considera…

I like the term "featurism", I'm going to try to remember it.

You're going to love the qualified version:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creeping%20f...

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#104

Post by naasking »

Ensorceled wrote: post #32
YesThatTom2 wrote: post #14

I was at a startup from 2000-2003 where the chief scientist was a security wonk and demanded that our product worked with and without JavaScript enabled. No wonder the startup failed. Imagine trying to make a useful product with one hand tied behind your back!

It can go the other way, the CEO at one company I worked at demanded that we have a rich, dynamic user experience with real time editing AND we fully support all the browsers that had visited the site in the last 6 months. We had people using Blackberry, IE6, Opera, Konqueror and stuff you've never heard of. They were happy to force javascript but wanted it to work on early smart phones. The VP product was losing her…

Bizarre. It's like starting a parking lot business by trying to accommodate every vehicle you see driving by your site over 6 months. You could have Winnebagos, tractor trailers and more bizarre vehicles, none of which you should consider as viable customers.

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#105

Post by nine_k »

olalonde wrote: post #78
dkarl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And companies writing the software that average people use are motivated solely by "what the average Joe wants," where "what the average Joe wants" is defined by business metrics like "how much is Joe clicking" and "how much is Joe spending."

I assume you don't believe this is a good thing? How would you measure "what the average Joe wants"?

This is not a "bad" thing, but it's not what the Average Joe wants, it's more what the Average Joe is incited to do. More clicking (on ads directly, or on "engaging content" that shows more ads) is what the business owners want from an Average Joe.

But "people do it == people directly desire it" is a manifestly wrong metric. When something is in short supply in a store, people will line up to secure the chance to buy it. But Apple would be insane to think that people lining up to buy a newest Macbook on the day or release want lining up, and that more lining up is what they'd enjoy. People tolerate lining up to get what they desire. Equally, people tolerate more clicking in order to get what they desire, and what they'd likely prefer to obtain with one click.

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#106

Post by imiric »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #91
exitb wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any version of Mosaic that are able to handle modern HTTPS?

Still plenty of websites which run on HTTP. I know mine certainly do. Security isn't everything, there's also accessibility to think about. HTTPS breaks in many circumstances when it's not needed, including on current browsers. You can also use a stripping proxy. Bigger issues I've encountered with actually using Mosaic is that a) it does not support the Host header, so you must have a dedicated IP address, and b) it…

> Security isn't everything, there's also accessibility to think about.

TLS is not just about security. It also protects the authenticity of your content, ensures privacy and even accessibility for your visitors. Without it, any node between your visitor and your server could inject content and JavaScript to do all sorts of nefarious tracking and profiling.

These days there's really no excuse for using plain HTTP on public facing sites. Please rethink your decision.

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#108

Post by loloquwowndueo »

badsectoracula wrote: post #38
mrtksn wrote: post #20

So the "movement" against modern browser features is not a movement and has nothing to do with these features but its simply a version of "kids these days lost their ways" thinking. A version of conservatism, I guess. "Everything was better in the good old days" and "The new generation is horrible, the humanity is doomed" kind of thoughts are probably a manifestation of fading youth.

It is also possible that stuff are getting worse though. After all i remember friends of mine who were in university raging on how bloated the web was around 2000 and i'm 99% certain they weren't middle-aged men disguised as teenagers :-P. If anything i don't remember knowing anyone above 25y back then who even cared about web stuff. After all having some people see and complain about things getting worse doesn't mea…

We always complain about bloat and slowness, then we build faster machines and networks and bigger storage, and software and content promptly expand to fill it all up and make it feel sluggish again.

For a chuckle try running old software on a modern computer (fire up dos box and run WordPerfect or something) and be amazed at the speed of the thing. that is why we built a faster computer :)

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#109

Post by casey2 »

Imagine a world where it's common to cd into a directory and anywhere from 1-10 awk scripts start running and possibly your image viewer and media player. Would you think you had malware installed?

Re: Why I Don't Use Netscape (1999)

#110

Post by tbran »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #70

I still use this strategy, though these days, I primarily use Mosaic and Netscape for testing. I tend to browse without JavaScript enabled, except for places I already trust to not abuse it. And if there is anything blocking me from accessing the page, such as a modal dialog, a cookie notice, a survey, a prompt to sign up for the newsletter, I close the tab. Over time, I have found that type of rude lack of considera…

I feel like the strategy of closing sites with newsletter sign-ups, dialog, etc. is just going to waste your time. If I'm searching for something, I just want the information. Not gonna close websites till I find one that has no popups/modals!!

Popup Blocker [0] and uBlock Origin for Firefox will do a pretty good job of getting rid of the junk you don't want.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/popup-blocker...

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