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Normalising Layoffs/Firing

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171–180 of 253 posts

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#171
post #4

"We have normalised firing of people." We spent decades in the US smashing unions, smashing pensions (replacing them with more volatile instruments like 401Ks) and made at-will employment dangerous for both sides of the equation. Firing has been trivialized for decades. This is not new, and the current wave is minuscule compared to 2008, 2000, and previous. The worst is yet to come.

When I started working in Europe, one of the most shocking this I learned was that you basically can't be fired under a normal work contract. I mean in theory you can, e.g. with group layoffs, gross negligence and so on, but it's illegal to fire person A and hire person B to do their job. You have to basically dissolve the job the person A was doing and when you hire the person B, they must not be doing what the laid off person was doing or else they can sue you.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#173
post #138
post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

Firing without cause is "almost impossible" in Europe. Firing for cause or genuine redundancies are rarely a problem most places in Europe. You have consultation requirements many places, to ensure that it's actually a genuine redundancy, but a company willing to offer a reasonably fair payout and who can demonstrate a genuine need to cut costs or a genuine lack of work for certain staff will generally not have much…

Firing for cause is easy. Firing without much of a cause too in most cases, but you will have to pay quite a bit.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be more specific please. In most countries of Europe we have a lot of laws to "protect" employees and current companies, making it harder in the first place to even create companies and hire people. But that's also true for others places in the world Yes generalizations are never true. Even talking about one country is a generalization and you will fail at making a statement about it. The best way to not make a mista…

> In most countries of Europe we have a lot of laws to "protect" employees and current companies, making it harder in the first place to even create companies and hire people There's no such things as generally "harder to create companies" in Europe. It's simply harder to create global multi billion conglomerates with an easy trigger for layoffs. So generally, that's true, there are less multi billion global conglome…

If anything, it's easier to create companies. Since the market is fragmented, if your business isn't reliant on network effect, it's generally easier to get by.

The massive plumbing companies in the US do not yet exist in my country. I feel this is changing, but fair competition is still enforced at the local level, so i might be wrong.

Nobody really care about little entrepreneurs it seems (especially not those politicians who claims they do), but i have the impression that the weakening of local courts is a prelude to a change towards a more anglo-saxon model. Like i said, i might be pessimistic and hopefully wrong.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#175
post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily.

What happens in a recession? When tens of thousands of people are fired easily across an economy they're not going to find another job quickly.

Making firing more difficult puts a mandate on companies to be a little more responsible when growing their headcount. As a consequence they're less vulnerable to wild swings as a result of unforeseen circumstances.

> Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections.

Big companies are favoured in hundreds of ways. Leveraging other income streams to price dump their way into a dominant position and creative methods of lowering their tax burden being just two. The answer to this isn't to strip worker protections but to remove those loopholes and encourage competition rather than monopolisation.

Many laws around workers rights are already relaxed for smaller companies.

> If a company is not useful to society, it should go down.

Absolutely, but most societies wouldn't be able to function if this was the case. Most economies simply aren't resilient enough to allow large companies to go down. I feel like it's fairly intuitive that once companies in certain sectors grow large enough they can become an essential part of the nation's infrastructure. That only leaves a few options:

- Continue bailing them out

- Nationalise them

- Prevent them from reaching that size in the first place

I don't see how making it easier to lay people off would advance any of these. Instead it only encourages companies to engage in risky behaviour and grow beyond their ability to sustain themselves.

> Don't idealize employment and companies. They are only tools on our path to wealth and freedom

We've created a system predicated on the fact that not everyone can be wealthy. I don't think it's moral to then say that the solution to being treated poorly is to just become wealthy.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#176

> for countries like India where there is no social security whats the reason for that?

> whats the reason for that?

India is a very huge and diverse country that was under foreign occupation for about two centuries. It is "just" 75 years since the country was independent and completely bankrupt. Add to that red-tape bureaucracy and corruption after independence.

Hopefully things will change in a few generations.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just so wrong on so many levels. > If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. Unless it is another economical crisis and nobody is hiring? > In Europe where firing is almost impossible It is called "job security" - if you hired somebody, you "promised" them to pay a wage. If they are not needed anymore, you need to keep on promise and pay a wage. For at least some time. E.g. a few month of salary…

There are definitely companies who spend more during economical crisis. Because everything costs less and it costs less to expand your business.

> Because everything costs less and it costs less to expand your business.

What's become cheaper in the current economic crisis?

There are by definition, fewer jobs available in total during an economic crisis. More competition for those positions also makes it likely that living standards will decrease.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#178
THis largly comes from growth asiprations, while traditional family business usually try to find balance between growth and conservatism. The Startups backed by investors, who fund them for growth accelerate significantly without base or processes and therefore there are high chances to falter. Also traditional family business has human touch where employees are treated like a family and therefore there is loyalty, lesser pay expectations etc Vs startup pay, Esop Expectations and making in to millionare club on the employee side.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#179
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been in Europe for a few years now and my experiance is significantly opposite of what the parent comment claims.

That doesn't really make logical sense to me. Can you elaborate? If hiring is an irreversible decision for a company, why wouldn't consideration be required prior to any hire?

In the uk at least employers have a grace period of 3-6 months where they can fire you for any or no reason.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#180
post #173
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firing without cause is "almost impossible" in Europe. Firing for cause or genuine redundancies are rarely a problem most places in Europe. You have consultation requirements many places, to ensure that it's actually a genuine redundancy, but a company willing to offer a reasonably fair payout and who can demonstrate a genuine need to cut costs or a genuine lack of work for certain staff will generally not have much…

Firing for cause is easy. Firing without much of a cause too in most cases, but you will have to pay quite a bit.

Getting someone to leave without much of a cause is easy, certainly, if you're willing to pay enough. The being willing to pay bit tends to be the sticking point that makes employers who are used to US "at will" employment complain.
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