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Normalising Layoffs/Firing

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Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#111

Post by ttoinou »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #73
ttoinou wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't normalise pushing people to quit via bullying of course. But bullying and bad benefits result from a company/employee mismatch, which changing jobs fixes easily

And changing jobs means you now no longer have the vast amount of protection you used to and have to build them back up. For the majority of countries, your entire point rests on the premise individuals are choosing to largely be immobile. Tenure length isn't that different from the US, all things concerned. Significant, especially given some countries, but not nearly as dramatic as "impossible to fire". The moment y…

   And changing jobs means you now no longer have the vast amount of protection you used to and have to build them back up.
...unless you negotiate a better contract for the next job ?

   It is primarily the elderly that benefit from the current structure
Agreed :-(

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#112

Post by _448 »

steebo wrote: post #3

Is it that you feel that the posters are doing the trivializing, or society as a whole? My impression is that nobody treats these layoffs as trivial. Recessions, downturns and the resulting employment uncertainty are cause for anxiety everywhere.

> Is it that you feel that the posters are doing the trivializing, or society as a whole?

Society as a whole, but more specifically the businesses that do mass layoffs.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#114

Post by jimjimjim »

the_optimist wrote: post #34

Yet we meanwhile worship at the alter of the Fed, seeing only money increased and ruling toward wanton destruction, that individual lives must be sacrificed in reduced employ, consumption, and future.

careful, being disrespectful of the alter will anger the acolytes

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#115

Post by alchemist1e9 »

cm2187 wrote: post #45
ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

Also the US corporate world has a good history of dealing with problems upfront, taking the pain and moving on, rather than living with their problems like it is done too often in europe. It seems destructive but the long term impact is a healthier economy and more jobs.

GDP per capita is an interesting number and I was quiet surprised recently when I compared US and European cities and countries. For those who haven’t the spoiler is the US is significantly higher. Most pro-EU economic narratives are on pretty shaky ground even before recent developments.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#116

Post by anothernewdude »

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

Hiring is most tedious in the U.S. Those massive pipeline processes are an American invention.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#117

Post by ttoinou »

lostlogin wrote: post #22
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily And if you can find a job easily, you can credibly threaten to decamp for leverage. (Or, if your boss is a dick, just leave.) I'm American. My bias shows. But I think an easy-to-fire, easy-to-hire model is far superior to the incumbency-biased systems which make hiring and firing an Olympic sport. We lack a strong-enough social net underneath it all, necessary…

> But that seems an easier fix than reforming an entire commercial culture. Does it? To an outsider, workers rights seem to be regressing.

Maybe we want less rights but more freedom and wealth

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#118

Post by peoplefromibiza »

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> In Europe where firing is almost impossible

Where exactly in Europe?

It's like saying "in Asia is almost impossible to do X"

Europe is a 750 million people continent formed by 51 different countries including Russia and UK

Be more specific please.

In Spain it's easy to fire, for example.

Their average salaries are 20% lower than the French ones, even though in France firing is hard, and their unemployment rate is almost double.

You theory has some flaws apparently.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#119

Post by serf »

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily.

that would only ever be true in whichever fantasy world where the managers and people-in-charge made wise and just decisions.

Plenty of 'rare talent' that is near irreplaceable is fired every single day by managers that don't know any better, and their niche talents make it very difficult to find new job prospects.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#120

Post by Rubber8787 »

junon wrote: post #66
meheleventyone wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can fire people pretty easily in Europe. There’s rules around layoffs but they are also common. All the companies I’ve worked for have hired and fired relatively freely.

Again, different countries, different laws. It is objectively NOT easy to fire people in Germany, for example.

There is no such thing as "objectively easy".

In Germany very small companies can fire people at will. It's effortless and requires minimal bureaucracy. Same for firing people in their long trial periods.

In other cases, the difficulty depends heavily on the situation. The easiest way is to simply negotiate with the employee. The other options involve more work

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