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Normalising Layoffs/Firing

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Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#91

Post by madis »

Correct and exactly how it is supposed to work. What do you expect a business owner to do when the job of a worker is not profitable / necessary any more? Pay him forever out of their own pocket, taking a loss? If you've ever hired qualified personnel, you know how hard it is to find good people. No good business owner would fire a good employee for a whim. They'd keep them as long as possible (even when temporarily there's no work)

Other thing is if it's easy to re-hire when there is profitable work again. This happens where there's much more offer (of workers) than demand. For example jobs with low cualification.

So, get rid of manipulating the money supply and economy and the rest will sort itself out.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#92

Post by BlargMcLarg »

dnissley wrote: post #75
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of it being irreversible is wrong and far more complex. Case study. In my country, most individuals do benefit from a severance on a permanent contract. Getting a permanent contract happens after working for a year if you're lucky or in a high demand job. In other cases, companies will use their power to stall as long as possible where beneficial. Temporary contracts do not have the same severance benefit…

What do these permanent and temporary contracts stipulate? Presumably they are quite different than the standard US employment contracts that basically just confirm at-will employment, etc.

In NL, you generally start with a fixed term of a year. After the year, the contract ends. Depending on relationships, supply/demand, field of expertise etc., the employer will either offer another fixed term or a permanent contract.

Permanent contract means the employer does not have the exit condition of "wait it out" to get rid of an employee. Additionally, permanent contracts tend to have bigger benefits attached to them, both legally and infrastructurally (e.g. getting a mortgage on a fixed term contract is nigh on impossible for most individuals).

Legally, employers can only offer so many fixed term contracts before they are forced to hire permanently or cut off the employee. In practice, you will see more exploitative companies look for ways to extend this (alternative legal structures), whereas fields with more balance in power (like IT) tend to present permanent contracts after a single temporary contract.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#93

Post by woodpanel »

Had to fire people in the past. Not an easy thing to do.

However, it lifts a lof the weight from your shoulders if you know social security is going to take care of them.

Plus, if you reverse the roles here: If you as an employer would prolong their jobs by paying them from your savings until your company/you yourself go bankrupt, none of your employees would return that favor. I've seen it many times.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#94

Post by cyrusshepard »

Test0129 wrote: post #67

> We have normalised firing of people. I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security, but for countries like India where there is no social security and stigma is associated with being laid off, it is a very difficult situation. Not to sound crass here but it seems like you're fishing for virtue. Hiring and firing are normal. A company of 20,000 firing 20% of it's workforce sounds maj…

Your comment seems to assume that 1) employment levels for software engineers is the same in India 2) that the OP has overstated the social stigma of layoffs in India, and finally 3) the current employment landscape that you find yourself in will last indefinitely.

Based on this, I suspect it's highly likely the hubris in this comment will not age well.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#96

Post by s5300 »

@op - this is called having no empathy & simply not giving a fuck about anybody but yourself/very close to you. A lot of high class in the USA see other humans here as nothing other than walking meat bags to be exploited for all they’re worth.

I’m glad you’re concerned, and I’m glad your sister’s husband has empathy and gives a fuck. Completely seriously. It’s rare in daily life, let alone a medium sized business or corporation.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#97

Post by tsimionescu »

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process.

I don't know where you got this idea, but, at least in tech, the most infamous 7 rounds of whiteboard interviews stories I've heard are from Silicon Valley, not Europe. The company I work for (a Romanian branch of a US company - and yes, Romania has all the same legal protections against t firing as most of Europe) typically does one tech interview and one HR interview and that's it.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#98

Post by llamataboot »

Definitely harder to lay people off when they know them. I can remember my dad not sleeping for weeks after he made it to management because he was going to have to lay off 5 friends.

--

That being said, I'm not sure the entire tech industry wouldn't benefit from less friction to switching - hiring is an insanely expensive and very low-signal process - spend 200 hours hiring a person and maybe they fit and work well, maybe they don't.

For employees, tech interviews are an insanely time consuming and stressful process where you know they aren't getting much signal. Not unusual to spend 20-60 hours in interviews for just one position. Look for a new job while you are employed? Hope you want 80 hour weeks...and same thing - no idea til you get in there what the culture is actually like, who was blowing smoke at you, if it matches your strengths...

And yet, still we continue down the same path of brutal on-sites, workers that feel stuck in a crappy job but definitely have skills to offer in a better place, etc

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#99

Post by xyproto »

cyrusshepard wrote: post #94
Test0129 wrote: post #67

> We have normalised firing of people. I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security, but for countries like India where there is no social security and stigma is associated with being laid off, it is a very difficult situation. Not to sound crass here but it seems like you're fishing for virtue. Hiring and firing are normal. A company of 20,000 firing 20% of it's workforce sounds maj…

Your comment seems to assume that 1) employment levels for software engineers is the same in India 2) that the OP has overstated the social stigma of layoffs in India, and finally 3) the current employment landscape that you find yourself in will last indefinitely. Based on this, I suspect it's highly likely the hubris in this comment will not age well.

Regarding 3), I believe that solving problems and creating systems will always be relevant.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#100

Post by ttoinou »

tsimionescu wrote: post #97
ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. I don't know where you got this idea, but, at least in tech, the most infamous 7 rounds of whiteboard interviews stories I've heard are from Silicon Valley, not Europe. The company I work for (a Romanian branch of a US company - and yes, Romania has all the same legal protections against t firing as most of Europe) typically does one tec…

We shouldn't compare big SV companies with the rest of the world though. Of course companies that are in high demand have a lot of people applying at their job and have harder / longer interview processes
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