Normalising Layoffs/Firing • Hacker News Board

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#11

Post by ttoinou » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:06 AM UTC

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant.

In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections.

If a company is not useful to society, it should go down. If you're not a good fit with the company, you should find your own way or a better company.

Don't idealize employment and companies. They are only tools on our path to wealth and freedom

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#12

Post by hparadiz » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:08 AM UTC

xupybd wrote: post #7

Here in new Zealand it's next to impossible to fire someone. We only really do redundancies . If you were fired it must have been serious misconduct.

What happens when a company runs out of money? I'm seriously asking.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#13

Post by junofan » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:09 AM UTC

Trivializing makes it less of a scarlet letter if you do get laid off or fired. Probably a net benefit for most people in the long run not to risk the business cycle affecting their future employability.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#14

Post by clumsysmurf » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:10 AM UTC

zeruch wrote: post #4

"We have normalised firing of people." We spent decades in the US smashing unions, smashing pensions (replacing them with more volatile instruments like 401Ks) and made at-will employment dangerous for both sides of the equation. Firing has been trivialized for decades. This is not new, and the current wave is minuscule compared to 2008, 2000, and previous. The worst is yet to come.

And one side wants to smash social security as well

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/10/republican-plan-cut-...

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#15

Post by butterNaN » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:13 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

I have been in Europe for a few years now and my experiance is significantly opposite of what the parent comment claims.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#16

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:16 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> if you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily

And if you can find a job easily, you can credibly threaten to decamp for leverage. (Or, if your boss is a dick, just leave.)

I'm American. My bias shows. But I think an easy-to-fire, easy-to-hire model is far superior to the incumbency-biased systems which make hiring and firing an Olympic sport. We lack a strong-enough social net underneath it all, necessary to be humane and maintain social stability. But that seems an easier fix than reforming an entire commercial culture.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#17

Post by jfoster » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:16 AM UTC

butterNaN wrote: post #15

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

I have been in Europe for a few years now and my experiance is significantly opposite of what the parent comment claims.

That doesn't really make logical sense to me. Can you elaborate? If hiring is an irreversible decision for a company, why wouldn't consideration be required prior to any hire?

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#18

Post by soptikha2 » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:16 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

My experience is quite different in regard to working in Europe.

How exactly is hiring a very tedious process? Seemed quite fast and easy to me.

And btw, it's not that hard to fire a wrong hire. You have few months to do so basically for any reason at all, and afterwards, you can still do it, if you have a good reason to do so.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#19

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:17 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant.

In New Zealand it is fairly easy to start a company (in the sense that the required paperwork isn’t too difficult). It’s easy to hire people, but firing is hard.

Why would ease firing mean ease hiring? Why would companies failing easily mean start ups are simple?

It’s not so much that companies need to be idealised, but that people need to be treated with a minimum level of care.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#20

Post by jimjimjim » Fri, Oct 14, 2022, 7:19 AM UTC

A lot of other (western) countries have a lot more legal protection for workers. For instance, your boss can't just say 'You're Fired!' because they are in a bad mood. That's insta lawsuit zone. Even layoffs. A position needs to be disestablished before someone can be laid off. And there are legal steps and consultation periods etc etc.