Live data from Hacker News

Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

reuters.com

41–50 of 58 posts

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#41
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my understanding is the exact opposite. how odd. >A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Well regulated means well armed. Militia means citizen army, and the people means the people. It is hard to come to a different understanding of the amendment without redefining these terms. My understanding is that those fa…

> Well regulated means well armed How do you figure this? Is there judicial precedent for this particular interpretation?

Historically military slang referred to the “regulars” which was the way to say “they guys you call upon to get dirty” and would mean different things depending on the army… a British regular would be a redcoat conscript, a US regular would be a militia volunteer from one of the colonies.

Guns were not issued to citizens, but were owned personally. It makes sense that the resulting law would read “we want the ability to have a militia and have those guys bring along their guns”. Especially because there was no standing army at the time, it was envisioned that the US Army was simply a way to refer to a conglomeration of state militias, not an organized Army.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#42
post #30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does seem to be the case.

He said "a good guy".

The constitution assumes the government will be run by bad people. Hence all the limits it imposed on government.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#43
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if any regulation of fully automatic weapons is constitutional now.

Read the Bruen opinion - it's well-written and actually pretty clear that recent (really, meaning the last two centuries) gun restrictions are unconstitutional. Any restrictions have to be ones that would have been commonly in place when the Constitution originated, so generally, no later than 1791. It's likely (and a really good thing for liberty and Constitutional rights in general) that Bruen will invalidate both…

If the NFA is repealed, hopefully that will finally galvanize popular support to repeal the second amendment.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#44
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US in any way special that makes this process of regulating weapons so difficult? Do other countries not have 2A-like legislation?

Gun ownership is baked into our founding documentation (The Constitution); as such, it's part of the very premise of our governmental foundation. All other laws, regulations, and everything else about our government is built from and traceable to The Constitution. As far as I know, only 2 other countries in the world have something similar in their Constitution: Mexico and Guatemala. Countries that don't have that ba…

> Gun ownership is baked into our founding documentation (The Constitution); as such, it's part of the very premise of our governmental foundation.

The irony here is that this court strikes down a clause of the Gun Control Act 1968 on the grounds that it is "not consistent with the United States' 'historical tradition of firearm regulation'" – and yet the very Supreme Court precedents it is applying in doing so are themselves not consistent with that tradition.

The 2nd Amendment was only intended to be a limit on federal gun laws; its authors didn't intend it to apply to the states, and nobody at the time understood it as doing so. Whether and to what extent state and local governments could regulate gun ownership was seen as a matter for state constitutions and state courts, not something the federal government (in any of its three branches) should get involved in.

Then the 14th Amendment was enacted, to try to prevent the defeated Confederate states from oppressing the newly freed slaves. Nobody at the time thought it had any relevance to non-discriminatory gun laws. I think its framers would have supported its use to overturn racially discriminatory state or local gun laws, but they would have seen racially neutral gun regulation as outside its intended scope.

The idea that non-discriminatory state and local (as opposed to federal) gun laws can violate the combination of the 2nd and 14th Amendments was introduced by the Supreme Court in 2010 (McDonald v Chicago). There is no evidence that the original authors of either Amendment would have foresaw or expected that outcome, and so was a major deviation from the "the United States' 'historical tradition of firearm regulation'".

The Gun Control Act 1968 is of course a federal law, so overturning it is not prima facie inconsistent with the original meaning of the 2nd Amendment. However, the logic of the decision (and the precedents it is based on) apply equally to equivalent state and local gun laws and regulations, which is a radical deviation from the original intentions behind the 2nd and 14th Amendments.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#45
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if any regulation of fully automatic weapons is constitutional now.

Read the Bruen opinion - it's well-written and actually pretty clear that recent (really, meaning the last two centuries) gun restrictions are unconstitutional. Any restrictions have to be ones that would have been commonly in place when the Constitution originated, so generally, no later than 1791. It's likely (and a really good thing for liberty and Constitutional rights in general) that Bruen will invalidate both…

That comment sounds excited at the prospect of a Wild West of guns becoming the norm once again, that’s not standard even for gun owners.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#46
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well regulated means well armed How do you figure this? Is there judicial precedent for this particular interpretation?

There seems to be some (literary, rather than judicial) precedent for that meaning of the expression, but on the other hand I haven't seen conclusive arguments as to why they would have chosen that particular turn of phrase to say something other than "governed by rules." Consider another part of the US Constitution, the Commerce clause: "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and wi…

Even if it were taken to mean regulate, in terms of rule setting, you still have to deal with the fact that the right is assigned to "the people", and not the state militias.

The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause.

These instances unambiguously refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights that may be exercised only through participation in some corporate body.

As the SCOTUS found in Heller, The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun ownership is baked into our founding documentation (The Constitution); as such, it's part of the very premise of our governmental foundation. All other laws, regulations, and everything else about our government is built from and traceable to The Constitution. As far as I know, only 2 other countries in the world have something similar in their Constitution: Mexico and Guatemala. Countries that don't have that ba…

> Gun ownership is baked into our founding documentation (The Constitution); as such, it's part of the very premise of our governmental foundation. The irony here is that this court strikes down a clause of the Gun Control Act 1968 on the grounds that it is "not consistent with the United States' 'historical tradition of firearm regulation'" – and yet the very Supreme Court precedents it is applying in doing so are t…

>The 2nd Amendment was only intended to be a limit on federal gun laws; its authors didn't intend it to apply to the states, and nobody at the time understood it as doing so. Whether and to what extent state and local governments could regulate gun ownership was seen as a matter for state constitutions and state courts, not something the federal government (in any of its three branches) should get involved in.

How do you figure this? The other rights assigned to the people in the bill of rights can not be infringed by states. For example, states can not pass laws which restrict free speech.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gun ownership is baked into our founding documentation (The Constitution); as such, it's part of the very premise of our governmental foundation. The irony here is that this court strikes down a clause of the Gun Control Act 1968 on the grounds that it is "not consistent with the United States' 'historical tradition of firearm regulation'" – and yet the very Supreme Court precedents it is applying in doing so are t…

>The 2nd Amendment was only intended to be a limit on federal gun laws; its authors didn't intend it to apply to the states, and nobody at the time understood it as doing so. Whether and to what extent state and local governments could regulate gun ownership was seen as a matter for state constitutions and state courts, not something the federal government (in any of its three branches) should get involved in. How do…

The Bill of Rights originally only applied to the federal government-which the opening words of the 1st Amendment - “Congress shall make no law…”-make very clear. Its authors modelled it on similar Bills of Rights in state constitutions - they believed that protecting the rights of citizens against infringement by the state and local governments was the job of state constitutions (to be enforced by state supreme courts) - not a federal issue. This was affirmed by the Supreme Court in the 1833 case Barron v Baltimore.

Then, the 14th Amendment was ratified. Its purpose was to prevent the ex-Confederate states from disenfranchising African-Americans. It was designed to overturn racially discriminatory state laws. There is no historical evidence its authors intended it to carte blanche apply the federal Bill of Rights to the states.

But, although the intention of the 14th Amendment in its historical context is quite clear, it was rather vaguely worded-and, in a gradual process, the Supreme Court began to exploit that vagueness in order to interpret the 14th Amendment as doing exactly that-“incorporating the Bill of Rights against the states”-something it has done piecemeal, article by article, clause by clause, and which still has not yet completed - the 1st Amendment was gradually incorporated from 1925 to 1963; the 2nd was only incorporated in 2010; by contrast, the 7th Amendment (right to jury trials in civil suits, etc) still has not been.

There is no evidence that the framers of the 14th Amendment ever intended the Supreme Court to engage in this rather arbitrary process of piecemeal “incorporation”-it is just something SCOTUS has made up out of whole cloth.

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#49
post #10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take the Second Amendment literally as written, even regulation of personal nuclear weapons is unconstitutional.

Sure, but posessing some of the materials needed for producing such a weapon is indeed illegal due to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954. Here is an article about some tangentially related recent events that mentions it (and explains as well)[0]. Owning a personal nuclear weapon might not be technically illegal. However, producing it and transferring it is illegal. Which, seems to be almost functionally equivalent to bein…

That's a weird logic. So it would be constitutional to outlaw gunpowder?

Re: Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 2nd Amendment was only intended to be a limit on federal gun laws; its authors didn't intend it to apply to the states, and nobody at the time understood it as doing so. Whether and to what extent state and local governments could regulate gun ownership was seen as a matter for state constitutions and state courts, not something the federal government (in any of its three branches) should get involved in. How do…

The Bill of Rights originally only applied to the federal government-which the opening words of the 1st Amendment - “Congress shall make no law…”-make very clear. Its authors modelled it on similar Bills of Rights in state constitutions - they believed that protecting the rights of citizens against infringement by the state and local governments was the job of state constitutions (to be enforced by state supreme cour…

That's really interesting, and something I haven't read before. Thank you for the idea
Post reply on HN