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Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

berk.es

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Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#491

Post by baobabKoodaa »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #372
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author started their post by defining what they mean by "framework" and it's pretty clear that your snark "do you have to write the HTTP server yourself" is way off from that definition. Also, if you don't have any experience with framework-free web applications - to the point where you can't imagine how one might exist - perhaps it would be a good idea to familiarize yourself with one? Yes, they exist. I've writ…

I don't accept the distinction between frameworks and libraries. Once past the most trivial stages, any codebase uses frameworks, often multiple of them. But they aren't all published or named as such. Often you create them yourself. I have myself written lots of things that work like a framework. Inversion of control is a powerful pattern. There really is no clear cut difference between a library and a framework. Al…

For a discussion that began with a clear definition of "what is a framework", you sure are spending a lot of effort muddying the waters. I for one strongly disagree with you on the idea that coders "accidentally" create frameworks, just like one might accidentally slip on a banana peel. I have written several codebases that have NOTHING resembling a framework in them.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#492

Post by vidarh »

pjmlp wrote: post #485
vidarh wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were to write a program that relies on those aspects of the abstract C machine and don't provide those aspects, then you might have an argument, in that in that case the observable behaviour would be different, but if you choose not to make use of that functionality, its presence is entirely irrelevant. This is also massively shifting goal posts. You first wrote "At which point it is no longer C". By your argu…

Everyone knows Linux is actually written in GCC C, and Google has burned lots of dollars making it work with clang, if it was proper C, that wouldn't never been an issue.

And yet almost everyone would still agree that "GCC C" is also C, so this is entirely irrelevant to what was being discussed.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#493

Post by soheil »

cudgy wrote: post #488
soheil wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is that there won't be a mess or at least as much of it if you use a framework. How is this so lost on people here so often!

Perhaps because the framework is hiding the mess from you and you have no idea how it is accomplishing critical portions of your application. Out of sight out of mind.

Which again is the whole point. I could care less if the auto-generated SQL isn't 100% efficient, as long as it's not getting in my way and I don't have to think about it when I do

  User.add({})
I think you need to better examine what you consider critical and maybe try to further break down the word critical for a better understanding of where to focus your time and energy while coding.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#494

Post by ontologiae »

I think most of the problems come from insufficient semantic power of actual language. Most programming language, even the most advanced don't manage time, don't manage locality, and don't fit in the brain representation human makes of the code. It's remarkably explained by Blackwell in his paper "Metaphors we Program By: Space, Action and Society in Java" https://www.ppig.org/papers/2006-ppig-18th-blackwell/

So frameworks try to manage this gap, and the only solution, IMO, is to invent language that integrate more advanced semantics to avoid the necessity of frameworks

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#495

Post by osigurdson »

civilized wrote: post #204
osigurdson wrote: post #174

>> A team that defines the standards, processes, practices, frameworks or architectures that other teams must follow..are amongst the lowest performers. It is a matter of degree. If teams responsible for this are legitimately trying to make things better (and not just trying to infallible high priests), it can be helpful. If there are established ways of doing things, it can sometimes alleviate the need to make the s…

At a minimum, Technology Standards Czar has to be earned. You can't just conjure up a spot on the org chart one day and staff it with some outside rando with a long, jargon-stuffed resume. The Technology Standards Czar should be an internal hire with a history of making good technology decisions for the org.

I wouldn't even call them a Czar. Consistency facilitator might be better.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#497

Post by night_person »

Whoever insisting promoting building everything from scratch, should try to live with such home grown framework. I saw few times when after building such software, original authors left and you stuck supporting this old crap with usually no documentation. After some time you decided to leave, but your CV does not contain now magic words as Spring, Django, etc.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#498

Post by pjmlp »

vidarh wrote: post #492
pjmlp wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows Linux is actually written in GCC C, and Google has burned lots of dollars making it work with clang, if it was proper C, that wouldn't never been an issue.

And yet almost everyone would still agree that "GCC C" is also C, so this is entirely irrelevant to what was being discussed.

Yeah, that is why plenty people then show up on Stack Overflow with questions that prove how much they know C, versus "whatever my compiler did when I tried it out".

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#499

Post by throwaway0asd »

jameshart wrote: post #442
throwaway0asd wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. After 25 years of experience writing software I can honestly say I have encountered many people that agree with this, and perhaps all of them (every single one) have not actually experienced writing an application without a framework. This sentiment sounds correc…

Any time a piece of software abstracts a repeatable pattern, that’s a ‘framework’. All a framework means is that there is a coherent, repeatable model for implementing the building blocks out of which the application is built. Even a simple command line program with hardly any functionality soon runs into the issue of having more than one command-line argument or environment-variable based configs. And a sensible, ma…

What you call a framework I call a function. I don't consider functions or the DRY principle to indicate a framework. A framework dictates how to proceed. A function is merely an available approach. To me this really sounds like imposing the word framework where the word abstraction is more appropriate.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#500

Post by hmlongco »

inopinatus wrote: post #133
Supermancho wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not all software has an implied framework within it. The definitions of "framework" are always a sticky issue. If you take "framework" at face value, it's minimally a set of idioms. "an essential supporting structure which other things are built on top of" - which necessarily includes a mental model of execution. This relates closely to why naming, in software development, is considered so difficult. All software h…

Well, I don't disagree, and we could almost label that "framework zero", and also hence the reference to Unix utilities and their assumptions regarding stdin/out, but I am also taking a contextual cue from the article linked at the top which is clearly taking aim at large pre-chewed boluses of code such as Rails, Django, Drupal and so forth. I am just about old enough to have even toggled in a program on the front pa…

Really? Did my toggling on an 8e that ran as a controller for a COM (Computer Output Microfilm) "printer".

Not saying that I could write code directly in octal... but I was pretty darn close. Of course, it helps when your assembly language consists of just eight instructions.

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