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How Doctors Die

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Re: How Doctors Die

#171
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me #1 is easy. Screw writing and reading, instead travel around the word, jump from planes, swim with sharks and die in months. 100% better then daily visits to a hospital for a handful of years. What I, and a lot of people like me, are doing now by not doing #1 is gambling we'll get to do it in the future. This is an easily lost gamble, but oh well.

Then the $19.95 home stem cell kit comes along the week after you die.

I think dhughes made a point here. I would choose option 2 not only because I have a chance to live longer, but also because there might be a treatment for my illness, which will be discovered in the future.

Re: How Doctors Die

#172
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Pascal's Wager isn't comparable here for a number of reasons. You're probably thinking of the reasoning some people give that a finite but humongous expected payoff justifies a finite but minuscule probability. I would agree that's a pretty stupid reason to do things; if it's worth doing there are probably better reasons. 2. It's not a guarantee, has anyone ever said it is? Hence my own estimate of at least 5%. (I…

> Pascal's Wager isn't comparable here for a number of reasons. Please provide them. > Hence my own estimate of at least 5%. (I believe I originally got that figure in my head back from http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/03/break-cryonics-down.ht... . -- I don't think it's an unreasonable one.) I guess if you invent a few data figures and then do math on them, you can get an aggregate of your own opinion. It's like t…

To be fair, there's only been one example of complete freezer failure at a cryonics firm that we know of, but one failure is enough if your corpse was being preserved at that firm. (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/354/m...)

Re: How Doctors Die

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has socialised healthcare, as do the rest of the European countries circling the drain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece It's worth noting that the US health model isn't a free-market system - the state links health care to employment, which distorts the market away from individual private health ownership, and creates patterns that make it easy for costs to creep up. The US health care model…

The EU countries that are not circling the drain also have socialized healthcare, for the most part. Healthcare is a driver of public sector costs, but hardly the only one.

Yup. That's why I thought the Sweden/Greece thing above was odd.

Re: How Doctors Die

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your ego talking, worrying about what other people think of your choice. As you get older, what other people think starts to lose its importance. Having had 2 brushes with suicide, and multiple times being reduced to destitution, I've since learned that life is not defined by happiness; it's defined by experience. And pain is just as valid an experience as any. In fact, I'd argue that a life without pain is a…

"I lived my life to its fullest." That's the point he was trying to make. You can't live much when you're strapped to a bed on painkillers.

That's opinion, and opinion shapes what reality you see. Changing your opinion is hard, but it can be freeing.

Re: How Doctors Die

#175
While this article is interesting, it should make clear that basic necessities for life MUST be maintained. Everybody needs food and water to live by ordinary means, all medical technology aside. However, life support is not required and is considered extraordinary.

Quality of life is something to achieve with the inclusion that these basic needs are met. If not, the quality of life is a personal opinion and can be interpreted in any way, from conservative, to ridiculous.

Re: How Doctors Die

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is easy to say that pain would be worth dealing with but in reality the majority of the healthy public has no understanding of what true chronic pain entails. Ask anyone who has worked in long term or hospice care this question and you will likely find an overwhelming majority choosing option 1. The reality is that in the US death and dying are still anathema.

>The reality is that in the US death and dying are still anathema. And thus with the help of the law people are made to live as long as it is possible even when they don't want to. I'm afraid that when the policy is reversed, people would be "encouraged" to quit as soon as possible (and being afraid of such reversal the society clings to the current policy). Somehow the society just can't understand the simple thing…

Agreed, I can think of nothing more personal than having to make that kind of decision. I do think some safeguards are probably necessary to prevent reactionary decisions such as cases where pain or disease are temporary. At the end of the day it comes down to education.

Re: How Doctors Die

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the $19.95 home stem cell kit comes along the week after you die.

I think dhughes made a point here. I would choose option 2 not only because I have a chance to live longer, but also because there might be a treatment for my illness, which will be discovered in the future.

If the treatment allowed you to live over a decade longer then you could live long enough to get another treatment option, this has been true about AIDS drugs.

But if the treatment allowed me to live over a decade longer I'd also choose the treatment even if there was no chance of a new cure.

If the treatment only allows you two or so extra years, unless something is already in the late stages of coming to market, there is just no way any kind of drug or therapy for humans will get through even the earliest stages of approval in that kind of time frame.

Re: How Doctors Die

#178
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free or not, it seems to work pretty well for the citizens there. You don't have a sizable portion of the population filing bankruptcy over medical bills and they haven't gone bankrupt like Greece. Something Sweden is doing is right.

Greece has socialised healthcare, as do the rest of the European countries circling the drain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece It's worth noting that the US health model isn't a free-market system - the state links health care to employment, which distorts the market away from individual private health ownership, and creates patterns that make it easy for costs to creep up. The US health care model…

Ireland has an extremely poor socialised health care system, and is in trouble right now. By your logic, the fact that the health care system was gutted in the 1980s should have allowed Ireland to avoid these issues. Sadly, it really isn't that simple.

Re: How Doctors Die

#179
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chance that complex technology that has never been tested - works - is very close to zero. That complex technology is freezing human bodies in attempt to preserve it for the future. Even if in the future recovering technologies work - non-working first step (freezing) which is done today - will kill overall process. http://aidevelopment.blogspot.com/2008/12/cryonics.html

Even assuming you have the knowledge that the freezing process is broken, which I doubt you have, I find that any chance greater than zero is worth the investment. I also qualified my original statement by saying that I'd do it if the technology improves. Extrapolating from past life expectancies, there is nearly a hundred years for the technology to develop until I need it. Saying the technology won't be there in a…

1) By default new technology is broken (until proven working in tests). There are virtually no examples of new complex technology working without prior testing and improvements.

2) You are extremely optimistic. Life expectancy improves for about 1 year in every 5 years (I'm quite optimistic with that estimate too).

So if you are 30 now, then by the time you are 80 life expectancy would change from 78 years (today) to 88 years(50 years from now).

So basically you have about 60 more years to live if you are lucky.

No way that freezing technology would improve into something meaningful by then.

Re: How Doctors Die

#180
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Pascal's Wager isn't comparable here for a number of reasons. You're probably thinking of the reasoning some people give that a finite but humongous expected payoff justifies a finite but minuscule probability. I would agree that's a pretty stupid reason to do things; if it's worth doing there are probably better reasons. 2. It's not a guarantee, has anyone ever said it is? Hence my own estimate of at least 5%. (I…

> Pascal's Wager isn't comparable here for a number of reasons. Please provide them. > Hence my own estimate of at least 5%. (I believe I originally got that figure in my head back from http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/03/break-cryonics-down.ht... . -- I don't think it's an unreasonable one.) I guess if you invent a few data figures and then do math on them, you can get an aggregate of your own opinion. It's like t…

The main reason: the decision matrix for Pascal's Wager introduces infinities; the many various ones you can construct for cryonics to win do not. (I suppose you could construct one with infinities, though I can't say I've ever seen one, and I don't think that construction would be tenable anyway.) Another: the fact that there are many constructs for cryonics decision matrices--Pascal's Wager is static in time, a "Cryonic's Wager" would be dynamic in time. Another: cryonics doesn't suppose anything supernatural--if cryonics can or can't work, there are physical reasons why, we don't just have to suppose the outcomes as baseless entities. Perhaps you should explain why you think Pascal's Wager is analogous here.

We're dealing with subjective probabilities representing confidence in prediction, so yes, we can do math on them and say "If you believe this, you must believe that if you want to be consistent." Even if all cryonics estimates are ultimately that person's prior (suggesting there is no additional information currently to update a person's estimate of cryonics working given their background information, something I think is false), we can still reason about different values.

If you think cryonics has epsilon chance of working, fine, it's not for you, and under the assumption that it doesn't work I'd agree no one should do it, but I don't think cryonics has epsilon chance of working, and I don't think it's just my prior. A secondary assumption we might make is that the future world would become horrible with us introduced to it. If we knew it would, then we know we'll never be revived, and I'd agree no one should bother with cryonics. Since we don't know that, you can factor it in as a part of your uncertainty about being revived, which is a part of your uncertainty about "cryonics working".

> Every dollar you pay for cryonics is a dollar that you're depriving your actual living children or family members, or it's a dollar you're depriving yourself of in the past modulo time value of money.

Yes... and? Every dollar you pay for "X" fits that. Do you think "This $10 could go to my friend" every time you spend $10? So what to do? The linked post, at the end, suggests a dollar-value you can assign if you only think "cryonics working" has a 5% chance:

"If you make 50K$/yr now, and value life-years at twice your income, and discount future years at 2% from the moment you are revived for a long life, but only discount that future life based on the chance it will happen, times a factor of 1/2 because you only half identify with this future creature, then the present value of a 5% chance of revival is $125,000, which is about the most expensive cryonics price now."

(And cryonics can be had for as little as $40k, more or less.) This isn't quite mathsturbation, since it's legitimate if in fact you match the stated assumptions.

> There's no way to tell if you're doing a good job or a bad job

Not true. You can rate cryonics businesses by how effective their vitrification methods are, how quick they are about it, how many patients they've lost due to any cause, whether they do any research into improving their methods as well as the currently unsolved problem of reversing it, how long they've been around, how well their facilities can resist natural disasters like earthquakes, and probably a bunch of other ways. Furthermore the market for cryonics is still very small; you stand to make a lot more money more easily doing other things, whether you're a charlatan or not. (For example releasing yet another homeopathic sleep inducer.)

Regarding your horrid comment, I'll explicitly say it's horrid and most likely untrue (but feel free to factor it into your uncertainty about "cryonics working"). If you're not going to bother defending that one, I'm not going to bother arguing against that one.

I thought the "evil" comment was interesting since the author noted it's not meant as a useful argument, it's meant as a response to useless ones. Which is what this has been. In your original comment "2" was the closest thing to an actually useful discussion point--how likely is it that enough brain information is there after vitrification? If you want to think of yourself as evil, go ahead, I wouldn't go that far but it's an interesting thought. Especially considering it from the perspective of living to 2070 (when I'll be 80), imagining that it turns out to be the year we successfully revive and fix whatever would have killed the first cryonics patient suspended in, say, 2000.

Don't conflate religion with religious thinking, and religious thinking with magical thinking, and magical thinking with bad thinking. While religious and magical thinking are both subsets of bad thinking, there are other forms, and they're all distinct from religion itself. (As an example of another issue where this "You're just a religion too!" criticism has been misused in relation to the idea of a technological singularity, see http://web.archive.org/web/20101227190553/http://www.acceler... )

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