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Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

berk.es

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Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#291

Post by throwaway284962 »

dstick wrote: post #257
throwaway284962 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. Of which you are the creator and expert, and have complete control and insight, and can change it in any way you want any time. It is in 100% alignment with your goals at all time. If you use a framework your organisation becomes incredibly complex, because you a…

Speaking purely about web software / web APIs, most software is 90% CRUD. It absolutely makes sense to use a framework to save new hires from grokking 90% of it's capabilities. You can have a new developer do stuff right out of the gate.

No post body was provided.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#292

Post by coldtea »

randomsearch wrote: post #255
coldtea wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If knowledge is on a single person alone, then your ex-company has bigger issues than framework or no framework. Not to mention that the interesting parts of your app should be the domain logic and workarounds and solutions used in it for business issues and historical layers of bussiness logic choices. And that a single person can take with them whether there's a framework or not.

Theory vs reality.

Exactly. In theory a framework would solve that.

But I described the reality.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#293

Post by cjfd »

a4isms wrote: post #17

1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. 2. If you have a talented team, that half of a framework can be much better than using a one-size-fits-all framework that is popular because it used to be lean and mean with a small surface area, but has grown over time to do everything for everyone, becoming a com…

For a "sufficiently complex application" it is more likely than not that the framework of which half was implemented in an "ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow" way actually is not available anywhere. Instead, very likely, some random framework that sounded like its functionality is somewhere in the direction of what is needed was downloaded and now partially helps and partially hinders development. Probably it hinders more than helps. But this assumes "sufficiently complex application". For a simple application it is more likely that a helpful framework is available.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#294

Post by another-dave »

throwaway284962 wrote: post #274
randomsearch wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why I always start a new app by writing my own operating system for it first. Use frameworks, use libraries. They will save you time, make your code less buggy, make it easier to hire other people. Writing your own ball of mud is great for a hobby but not for business.

I started using a framework for a task at work, was immediately tripped up by an obvious stupid bug in the config files, reported it and it was closed because "too many people already depend on this behaviour". So now I've in-sourced other companies legacy and taken on a huge liability in depending on the evolution of undefined number of other organisations and their code bases. And even worse when these frameworks a…

Build everything in-house or be beholden to some dude going backpacking is a false dichotomy.

It'd be like saying I always make my own food from scratch — have you seen the state of the burger van down on the corner? You can't trust food made by others.

All frameworks aren't created equal — as with any tooling, you choose something based on the features of the framework but also the longevity, reputation and ecosystem built around it.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#295

Post by dmitriid »

coldtea wrote: post #230
a4isms wrote: post #17

1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. 2. If you have a talented team, that half of a framework can be much better than using a one-size-fits-all framework that is popular because it used to be lean and mean with a small surface area, but has grown over time to do everything for everyone, becoming a com…

> 1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework Every sufficiently complex built-on-top-of-a-framework application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of workarounds to the framework's limitations, the overhead of parts it doesn't need, a nightmarish dependency situation, a…

Why not both? :)

Often you end up with an external framework, and an internal framework, and workarounds for both of them.... that are trying to evolve into their own framework

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#296

Post by slifin »

jarek83 wrote: post #228
throwaway284962 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. Of which you are the creator and expert, and have complete control and insight, and can change it in any way you want any time. It is in 100% alignment with your goals at all time. If you use a framework your organisation becomes incredibly complex, because you a…

> Of which you are the creator and expert, and have complete control and insight, and can change it in any way you want any time. It is in 100% alignment with your goals at all time. And then you change a job and you take 80% knowledge with you and your now-past project is in deep trouble.

Unless you're in a library driven ecosystem like Clojure in which case the majority of interesting code is just calling into a library

Yes you still have to know how it's glued together but at least there is still standardisation whilst still being flexible enough to swap individual libraries

Not a perfect solution but a good compromise in my experience

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#297

Post by kybernetyk »

a4isms wrote: post #17

1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. 2. If you have a talented team, that half of a framework can be much better than using a one-size-fits-all framework that is popular because it used to be lean and mean with a small surface area, but has grown over time to do everything for everyone, becoming a com…

Re point 1: yes. But it’s your bug ridden half framework and you don’t depend on external developers to make sane decisions.

I’ve been using static site generators for my product site and app documentation and every time I set up a new dev machine e (or just update the generator) I’m in dependency hell because some plugins had breaking changes etc. that’s why I switched to my own bug ridden php implementation of the site/docs. At least I don’t get to spend the day googling for change logs, etc when I type ‘make’.

/rant over

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#298

Post by iveqy »

jarek83 wrote: post #243

It seems that there are mostly 2 types of devs: - those that use tools, learn them and master in them, - those that always want to create their own tools, and will usually oppose adopting and learning existing ones. I belong to the first type. I love frameworks because they give publicly available documentation that plenty of people contribute to - so my project will have access to all of it even if I'm gone. Another…

I belong to the second type. I believe it's a great asset to have in business. Most often less code means shorter development time and cheaper maintenance.

People knowing a framework will often use it for everything. Instead looking at the problem and find the easiest solution to it offers great time to marked.

I've proudly deleted more code than I've written at work.

Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software

#300

Post by tpxl »

throwaway284962 wrote: post #274
randomsearch wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why I always start a new app by writing my own operating system for it first. Use frameworks, use libraries. They will save you time, make your code less buggy, make it easier to hire other people. Writing your own ball of mud is great for a hobby but not for business.

I started using a framework for a task at work, was immediately tripped up by an obvious stupid bug in the config files, reported it and it was closed because "too many people already depend on this behaviour". So now I've in-sourced other companies legacy and taken on a huge liability in depending on the evolution of undefined number of other organisations and their code bases. And even worse when these frameworks a…

Good news, the framework is open source! You get to fork it, fix the bug and get every other functionality for free!
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