Earlier quoted context omitted.
Each coin-toss is a deterministic physical process governed by laws of motion. If we had perfect information about the motion of all components in the system (hand, coin, air, floor, etc.), then we could, in principle, perfectly predict the outcome of every toss. Each individual toss would have a 100% probability of its predicted outcome. Since we typically lack any of that information, we are stuck with the 50 / 50…
This is very debatable if you throw QM into the mix. From all what we know, we cannot predict everything with 100% success rate -- QM cannot be explained by a hidden variables model.
What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
21–30 of 33 posts
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is very debatable if you throw QM into the mix. From all what we know, we cannot predict everything with 100% success rate -- QM cannot be explained by a hidden variables model.
Argh - yes it can. Bell explicitly have a pretty trivial one in one of his early papers. QM cannot be explained by a non-contextual hidden variables model. (The simplest physical version of contextuality is locality - so as Bell showed you cannot explain quantum theory with a local hidden variables model).
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
> half the argument seems to be the a mismatch between mental models and actual reality. Which half seems to be a mismatch to you? A bayesian half or a frequentist one?
Every time I've tried to understand the entire argument it just raises more questions to me. For example as I was first introduced to it, frequentists simple count frequencies observed in nature and then compute stats on them, and then build inferential models using those stats without assuming any complex underlying distribution. While Bayesians count frequencies, apply a prior correction (say, adding a pseudocount…
I think that it is a bad way to explain differences. The good way is to look into the history of approaches and to see how they are different.
The history is illuminating. Frequentists started with card games, trying to figure out a winning strategy. And so they were attracted to frequencies, they invented combinatorics to calculate frequencies, and later they came with game theory. Of course it is not the whole story. While initially they get frequencies as given or inferred with math, they also encountered problems where it was impossible to calculate frequencies by combinatorics, so they invented a limit with samples approaching infinity of an empiric frequency, claimed it a definition of a probability, and now they deal with the impracticality of an infinity, using p-values or whatever to measure should they get more samples or it is enough already.
Thomas Bayes came from the other side. He started with a task where he had a hypotheses and tried to choose between them based on evidence. He was a priest and he was unsure should we believe in miracles given reports of eyewitnesses. So he dealt with a belief. He quantified belief and found a procedure of updating belief given a piece of evidence.
So generally speaking, Thomas Bayes started with the problem which frequentists saw as a side issue. Frequentists sought how to use probabilities to win a game without bothering much where to get those frequencies, Bayes sought how to infer a belief (or probabilities as a degrees of a belief) from an evidence, without bothering much what to do with the resulting belief. (To stop being a priest? I don't know what his plan was and I suspect he had no plan, it was a pure curiosity.).
And hence comes the ideological difference between them. Frequentists see probability as a property of a Universe, Bayesians see probability as a property of an observer, a property of his imperfect model of a Universe. Bayesians bring model explicitly into a picture, and so they can consciously think of enhancing it. Frequentists can think of a model too, but they lack vocabulary, it is a missing part of their picture, it is hard for them to pinpoint it.
It really has something in common with quantum mechanics that debated for decades is uncertainty a way the Universe works or it is just our imperfect way to describe it.
But these are ideological differences. To see practical differences one needs to dive into practical problems and to see how different approaches works there. Mostly people learn frequentist's approach in an undergraduate course and then they learn bayesianism on a bunch of problems that are easy with bayesianism and very hard or impossible to tackle with frequencies. You can try "Think Bayes"[1] if you like. Or to read Judea Pearl's "The Book of Why"[2]. He invented modern bayesianism, starting with ideas of Thomas Bayes. "The Book of Why" more of his next invention (Causation) but he talks there of bayesianism too.
[1] https://greenteapress.com/wp/think-bayes/
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Book-Why-Science-Cause-Effect-ebook/d...
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every time I've tried to understand the entire argument it just raises more questions to me. For example as I was first introduced to it, frequentists simple count frequencies observed in nature and then compute stats on them, and then build inferential models using those stats without assuming any complex underlying distribution. While Bayesians count frequencies, apply a prior correction (say, adding a pseudocount…
> For example as I was first introduced to it, frequentists simple count frequencies [...]. While Bayesians count frequencies [...] I think that it is a bad way to explain differences. The good way is to look into the history of approaches and to see how they are different. The history is illuminating. Frequentists started with card games, trying to figure out a winning strategy. And so they were attracted to frequen…
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every time I've tried to understand the entire argument it just raises more questions to me. For example as I was first introduced to it, frequentists simple count frequencies observed in nature and then compute stats on them, and then build inferential models using those stats without assuming any complex underlying distribution. While Bayesians count frequencies, apply a prior correction (say, adding a pseudocount…
> For example as I was first introduced to it, frequentists simple count frequencies [...]. While Bayesians count frequencies [...] I think that it is a bad way to explain differences. The good way is to look into the history of approaches and to see how they are different. The history is illuminating. Frequentists started with card games, trying to figure out a winning strategy. And so they were attracted to frequen…
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#26This falls apart in higher dimensions, but in the example given in the article the two answers only differ because they have different priors. If you repeat the bayesian analysis using the prior \theta ~ N(0, x), and let x go to infinity, then you approach the frequentist answer. In my opinion, https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/2272/whats-the-dif... is a better explanation of the difference between confidence…
Also, regarding "But note that we probably don't really care about the confidence interval or credibility interval." Many times we do - giving a point estimate and an associated quantification of its uncertainty is one of the most basic statistical tasks.
Further, it's somewhat misleading to critique frequentists by saying they don't give probabilities for P(Jar | Chips), because in the frequentist setup the jar is a fixed and unknown parameter, not stochastic. For the two-cookie setting, it's trivial to generalize the construction in the M.SE post, so saying "frquentists can't track evidence to get better predictions" is simply wrong.
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#27This falls apart in higher dimensions, but in the example given in the article the two answers only differ because they have different priors. If you repeat the bayesian analysis using the prior \theta ~ N(0, x), and let x go to infinity, then you approach the frequentist answer. In my opinion, https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/2272/whats-the-dif... is a better explanation of the difference between confidence…
Honestly, I think Wasserman does a better job. The cookie interval example gets the fact that frequentists require uniform coverage properties with respect to the unknown parameter right. But the "when you pull a cookie with 3 chips your interval is only correct 41% of the time" thing isn't really an essential Bayesian vs. Frequentist issue. As Wasserman notes, coverage is a minimal requirement for something being a…
Frequentists are fundamentally unable to answer "Given that I drew a cookie with 2 chips on the first draw, what is the chance I draw a cookie with 0 chips on my second draw?". That question requires a prior; any solution frequentists find is just implicitly assigning a prior to the distribution of jars.
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Each coin-toss is a deterministic physical process governed by laws of motion. If we had perfect information about the motion of all components in the system (hand, coin, air, floor, etc.), then we could, in principle, perfectly predict the outcome of every toss. Each individual toss would have a 100% probability of its predicted outcome. Since we typically lack any of that information, we are stuck with the 50 / 50…
This is very debatable if you throw QM into the mix. From all what we know, we cannot predict everything with 100% success rate -- QM cannot be explained by a hidden variables model.
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honestly, I think Wasserman does a better job. The cookie interval example gets the fact that frequentists require uniform coverage properties with respect to the unknown parameter right. But the "when you pull a cookie with 3 chips your interval is only correct 41% of the time" thing isn't really an essential Bayesian vs. Frequentist issue. As Wasserman notes, coverage is a minimal requirement for something being a…
"giving a point estimate and an associated quantification of its uncertainty is one of the most basic statistical tasks". My argument is that this is only true in a frequentist framing. A bayesian framing would ask, "why do you need a point estimate when you have the posterior?" In the cookie-jar case, what do you actually need to do in the real world that a confidence interval of jars helps you with? Do you win a pr…
You might claim that we should do away with intervals and just report posteriors for all physical quantities. This complicates matters slightly without solving the problem. If the true parameters, when ultimately known, consistently end up in very low density regions of the probability distribution (such as far in the tails), we would regard our uncertainty estimates as poor. Again, it is not hard to construct examples where Bayesian methods have poor coverage properties in this sense.
(Also, a minor point: Regarding "Do you need to select a strategy up front which gives at least a 70% chance of being right about the jar over iterations where the jar is fixed but the data varies?", one does not need to fix the jar for frequentist methods to have good guarantees. See Wasserman's simulation with the median.)
Re: "Given that I drew a cookie with 2 chips on the first draw, what is the chance I draw a cookie with 0 chips on my second draw?", this is not a question about estimating an unknown parameter of a distribution, so it's not statistical in the sense Wasserman is talking about. It's just an elementary probability question that requires knowing something about the jars to answer. Both frequentist and Bayesian statisticians agree on the validity of Bayes rule (and hence how to answer this question once the relevant information is known or assumed); where they differ is on how to conceptualize and estimate unknown parameters of probability distributions.
Re: What Is Bayesian/Frequentist Inference? (2012)
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Argh - yes it can. Bell explicitly have a pretty trivial one in one of his early papers. QM cannot be explained by a non-contextual hidden variables model. (The simplest physical version of contextuality is locality - so as Bell showed you cannot explain quantum theory with a local hidden variables model).
Let's not break causality by observing non-local hidden variables.