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How Doctors Die

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Re: How Doctors Die

#161

Post by ricardobeat »

kstenerud wrote: post #102
silversmith wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it does not equal the same as not playing. The end result is the same - death. Heck, the result of all three possibilities is the same. But the difference is in the length and quality of life leading up to it. Given the choice between now and couple years of pain later, I currently see myself choosing the former. I don't want to go through the process of becoming a disease-worn shadow of myself, and neither do I…

That's your ego talking, worrying about what other people think of your choice. As you get older, what other people think starts to lose its importance. Having had 2 brushes with suicide, and multiple times being reduced to destitution, I've since learned that life is not defined by happiness; it's defined by experience. And pain is just as valid an experience as any. In fact, I'd argue that a life without pain is a…

    "I lived my life to its fullest."
That's the point he was trying to make. You can't live much when you're strapped to a bed on painkillers.

Re: How Doctors Die

#162

Post by ricardobeat »

defdac wrote: post #21

Tonight I will tell the mother of our child that if I reason in any way that resembles this article she should slap me in face and tell me to fight for my life. For my daughter and my own sake. In Sweden medical care is free. I can fight as long as I want without them getting in trouble. I also suspect I should fight so hard as if the illnes is truly terminal I will end sooner in flames, not later. I want all the tub…

I don't think we've read the same article. It's not about money.

Re: How Doctors Die

#163

Post by larrys »

fingerprinter wrote: post #12

So, couple of things. Just had my wife read this (she is a doc) and we chatted about this. We are in our mid-30s and several years ago she was admitted to the ER and then ICU for 7 days for an obviously life threatening situation. (She has a near blanket NO CODE, FYI). She recovered, but there was at least 48 hours where her odds were "much worse than a coin flip" as on of her colleagues told me. So people distinguis…

Agree. My wife is a MD also (internal medicine) and the only time I saw her cry was when she received a call in the middle of the night and found out that one of her patients that was dnr/dni (an elderly lady) had exactly that done to her. The staff at the hospital where she was off shift had overlooked the directive.

Re: How Doctors Die

#164

Post by larrys »

WettowelReactor wrote: post #75
rdl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine not doing #2 unless I'd also be non-functional during the extended life period. If I could read, use the Internet, write, talk to people, etc., it seems like it would be worth pain (which will end when you die, no matter what). The only case where I could see #1 being a reasonable choice is if #2 puts such hardship on those around you that their lives become much worse.

It is easy to say that pain would be worth dealing with but in reality the majority of the healthy public has no understanding of what true chronic pain entails. Ask anyone who has worked in long term or hospice care this question and you will likely find an overwhelming majority choosing option 1. The reality is that in the US death and dying are still anathema.

"reality the majority of the healthy public has no understanding of what true chronic pain entails"

Agree. And forget even chronic pain. Simply having a nagging pain, a bad cold, nausea, or a bad headache is certainly enough to take the joy out of many things in life. Even a drip in my throat can kill my buzz.

Re: How Doctors Die

#165

Post by pauncejones »

Hospice nurses helped both of my parents die as quickly and peacefully as possible. My father had congestive heart failure - a slow death over months, and my mother had dementia, and eventually started losing the ability to control her basic functions like breathing and swallowing.

If it weren't for the kind advice of my mother's doctor, who instructed all of her caregivers NOT to allow her to be taken to the hospital or be picked up by an ambulance, she might have ended up in a vegetative state in a hospital as well. He explained how it's a hospital's duty to do everything in their power to resuscitate someone, regardless of whether it's really humane or not.

It was awful watching them both die, but sitting with your family while you're given liquid morphine is much better than going through a frightening, painful, lonely death in a hospital.

Re: How Doctors Die

#166

Post by dhughes »

bh42222 wrote: post #72
rdl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine not doing #2 unless I'd also be non-functional during the extended life period. If I could read, use the Internet, write, talk to people, etc., it seems like it would be worth pain (which will end when you die, no matter what). The only case where I could see #1 being a reasonable choice is if #2 puts such hardship on those around you that their lives become much worse.

For me #1 is easy. Screw writing and reading, instead travel around the word, jump from planes, swim with sharks and die in months. 100% better then daily visits to a hospital for a handful of years. What I, and a lot of people like me, are doing now by not doing #1 is gambling we'll get to do it in the future. This is an easily lost gamble, but oh well.

Then the $19.95 home stem cell kit comes along the week after you die.

Re: How Doctors Die

#167

Post by hncommenter13 »

Cass wrote: post #18

To everyone considering a "NO CODE" tattoo after reading this story: Don't. If you're really that serious about not wanting to be resuscitated under any circumstances, wear some kind of bracelet or necklace with those words on it, and, just as importantly, a recent date, and contact info for a person who knows your exact wishes. Make sure to update the date regularly. Medicine changes, and so do your life circumstanc…

This was drilled into our heads in EMT school--without a valid DNR per protocols, we continue CPR. The exact rules vary from county to county and from state to state, but the point is to ensure that the DNR is well and truly valid before denying potentially lifesaving care to a patient (and to legally protect the first responders, who can lose their license/possibly go to jail for recklessly failing to provide appropriate care).

You can read San Francisco's EMS protocol for DNRs--it's more complicated than just saying (or wearing) "NO CODE."

http://www.sfdem.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=76... (warning: pdf)

Note that the bracelet/necklace frequently has a phone # that the first responders can call to verify the DNR.

Re: How Doctors Die

#168

Post by harichinnan »

dcurtis wrote: post #6

I was in Best Buy earlier today and the sales guy who was trying to sell me a TV reminded me a lot of the doctors/residents I was dealing with during a few weeks I spent caring for a family member at Mass General Hospital a couple years ago. I don't think they do it consciously, but doctors try to sell you on their philosophies for healthcare. But it doesn't matter. You're sitting in a small room with dim lights and…

The choices are very binary. A right choice would be option 2 with right to die if things don't turn out as planned.

Re: How Doctors Die

#169

Post by cturner »

cjy wrote: post #127
cturner wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has socialised healthcare, as do the rest of the European countries circling the drain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece It's worth noting that the US health model isn't a free-market system - the state links health care to employment, which distorts the market away from individual private health ownership, and creates patterns that make it easy for costs to creep up. The US health care model…

How is the state linking health care to employment? My understanding is that health care is linked to employment because of the adverse selection problem that occurs in a free market of individual health insurance. Can you elaborate on why you consider this to be the government's fault?

    > How is the state linking health care to employment?
During the second world war US wages were frozen. But there was an exception where you could provide employees with differing levels of health care. So that became a mechanism for competing for staff: it became common for companies to offer corporate health care at the same time that individual private health was dropping off because nobody had any money to afford it. This pushed the market towards group-based programs. After the war, public policy further cemented the patterns that had developed.

I understand that if you live in the US it's impractical to get private health insurance on an individual basis because there's low business in the space, meaning low competition, as well as the tax structures described by other commenters.

    > My understanding is that health care is linked to
    > employment because of the adverse selection problem that
    > occurs in a free market of individual health insurance
I'm not familiar with this effect, which isn't to say that it doesn't exist - don't know. Certainly there were healthy private health markets in countries I'm familiar with before the age of government intervention.
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