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Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

penntoday.upenn.edu

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Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#31

Post by [deleted] »

arnidg wrote: post #7
dev_throw wrote: post #3

Sounds like advanced symbiosis. I wonder if the movement is across a gradient or whether the super organism has a control unit that makes decisions. Are we a result of similar microorganisms?

> Are we a result of similar microorganisms? I'm no biologist, but from what I've read: Probably not. A really important fact about multicellular life is that each cell is genetically identical to any other cell in the organism. Otherwise, different cells will start competing with one another, until the relationship falls apart. In nature, symbiosis only works because each cell has an independent means of reproductio…

[deleted]

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#32

Post by pnw »

bmau5 wrote: post #29

The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like in…

Interesting company! Are there any commercial oral care products with arginine in them? What’s your opinion on the toothpaste with lysine supplements and the oral probiotics for gum care?

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#33

Post by thelittleone »

bmau5 wrote: post #29

The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like in…

A fascinating field of inquiry. Digestive systems and their inhabitants have evolved over millions of years.

I recently shifted my mindset to feed not just for me, but also for the ~2kg of microbiota [1] inhabiting my digestive system. Has been great for my health.

[1] https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2017/april/the-gut-microbiome/

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#34

Post by Eisenstein »

pnw wrote: post #32
bmau5 wrote: post #29

The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like in…

Interesting company! Are there any commercial oral care products with arginine in them? What’s your opinion on the toothpaste with lysine supplements and the oral probiotics for gum care?

Is arginine necessary to apply topically to the teeth, or can it just be ingested? If the latter, you can get l-arginine supplements easily. They are also supposed to help with certain, um, circulation issues.

Also, xylitol is a great biofilm disrupter. Chewing xylitol gum has been shown to be beneficial in preventing carries.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#35

Post by im3w1l »

semperdark wrote: post #16
Maursault wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In nature, symbiosis only works because each cell has an independent means of reproduction, and that always puts a limit to how close the cooperation can be (nothing close to forming multicellular life) Mitochondria is its own organism, has its own DNA that is separate and distinct from nuclear DNA. It has been very successful through very close cooperation.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiogenesis

True, though largely limited to DNA necessary for its functions. I don’t have a citation on me (mobile) but there’s evidence that more “generic” mitochondrial DNA was integrated into the nuclear DNA, and that this is also the case for other endosymbionts.

I have a hypothesis for why this happens. Sexual reproduction has a very neat property: Recombination. Two individuals that each have one harmful mutation can through recombination have offspring without either of them. This allows removal of harmful mutations from the gene pool without terminating someones entire lineage - important when every generation comes with a decade of mutations, unlike microorganisms that are more on the scale of hours or days. However mitochondrial DNA cannot recombine, so it cannot benefit from this mechanism. Therefore it makes sense to move as much DNA as possible from the mitochondria to the nucleus. The same goes for the Y-chromosome, and could explain why it has been losing genes over time at a truly astounding pace.

> In the last 190 million years, the number of genes on the Y has plummeted from more than 1,000 to roughly 50, a loss of more than 95 percent.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-incredible-shrinking-sex-...

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#36

Post by Waterluvian »

Anecdotally, I’m having one hell of a time with my 3yo and 5yo’s teeth.

No juice. No soda. No bad snacks. Lots of dentist recommended foods and snacks. Full brushing and flossing regimen. Fluoride. Dentist applied special fluoride treatments. Trust me when I say we’re doing everything right.

And yet they’re 3 and 5 and have had so many cavities.

I asked my dad about it and he said my brothers and I had, frankly, poor dental hygiene, and not a single cavity until our teens.

I’m not saying it’s because of this organism or any specific thing. But I cannot shake the feeling that something significant has changed in the last 30 years.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#37

Post by ParksNet »

Eisenstein wrote: post #34
pnw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting company! Are there any commercial oral care products with arginine in them? What’s your opinion on the toothpaste with lysine supplements and the oral probiotics for gum care?

Is arginine necessary to apply topically to the teeth, or can it just be ingested? If the latter, you can get l-arginine supplements easily. They are also supposed to help with certain, um, circulation issues. Also, xylitol is a great biofilm disrupter. Chewing xylitol gum has been shown to be beneficial in preventing carries.

Its difficult to find Xylitol gum that uses traditional tree sap and not plastic resin (and also doesn't contain added sugar). Any suggestions?

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#38

Post by Choco31415 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #36

Anecdotally, I’m having one hell of a time with my 3yo and 5yo’s teeth. No juice. No soda. No bad snacks. Lots of dentist recommended foods and snacks. Full brushing and flossing regimen. Fluoride. Dentist applied special fluoride treatments. Trust me when I say we’re doing everything right. And yet they’re 3 and 5 and have had so many cavities. I asked my dad about it and he said my brothers and I had, frankly, poor…

My teeth were always complimented by the dentist as being beautiful. This is despite plenty of juice, candy, snacks, no special diet, etc, outside of regular dental cleanings and making sure to spend proper time brushing each tooth. I’m 24.

Maybe something else is at play?

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#39

Post by at_a_remove »

fbdab103 wrote: post #20

Years ago, I recall reading about a putative Cavity Vaccine which was a bateriophage which targeted the tiny fraction of species present in the mouth responsible for tooth decay. Supposedly, a one time inoculation would confer lifelong protection. It has been decades and I have not heard anything more about this. Big Dentist keeping the research down or was there some "in mice" kind of gotcha which limited the treatm…

I tracked down the guy who invented this, if this is the version you're thinking of, and wrote him. It wasn't a vaccine so much as it was a replacement of your oral flora and fauna with a non-cavity causing bacteria.

This was maybe twelve years ago, but he said essentially that the FDA really really really didn't like the idea, and he had to sell off bits and pieces of the concept.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#40

Post by sidlls »

Waterluvian wrote: post #36

Anecdotally, I’m having one hell of a time with my 3yo and 5yo’s teeth. No juice. No soda. No bad snacks. Lots of dentist recommended foods and snacks. Full brushing and flossing regimen. Fluoride. Dentist applied special fluoride treatments. Trust me when I say we’re doing everything right. And yet they’re 3 and 5 and have had so many cavities. I asked my dad about it and he said my brothers and I had, frankly, poor…

Could be something has changed, or else something else is at work. I had wretched teeth throughout my youth and through my late 20s. I have 8 or 9 crowns maybe 16 teeth, a few with fillings; some were pulled for orthodontic work. Then about 10 years ago I stopped regular dental hygiene practices: I brush my teeth once a day (most days) and rarely floss. Haven't had a "watch" in years since I dropped the practice of flossing once a day and brushing twice. My breath isn't foul smelling, either, except when I have tonsil stones (which is rare these days). Maybe for me the hygiene disrupted whatever was in my mouth that was disrupting the bad bacteria.
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