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Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#21
post #19

While I respect you asking a legitimate question, I would recommend being cautious while reading this thread. Discussions about Japanese culture, and foreign cultures in general, tend to be dominated by westerners retelling ideas they've read by other western people on the internet. Japan not having a large presence in American social networks makes it especially vulnerable to exoticization, speculation, and exaggera…

I don't know...I think this is overcautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people, it sort of sounds like you think we need to discount those views, but I think that's pretty racist (a racist stereotype like if you're not Japanese then you can't think or talk about the culture in anything but a stupid way...very racist to say so), and maybe a part of the insularity I'm trying to investigate!--because the idea of insularity is about cultural interaction across cultures, so the opinions of other cultures and their experiences of Japan is vitally important...it can't just be from Japanese people as you seem to be suggesting, we have to listen to everyone from everywhere, that's the point of this question, which I don't think you got.

So....But actually, I aimed to elicit the response from Japanese people about their own culture. I think there's an unintentional trend to view this as negative...I want to encourage Japanese people to tell the story of their insular culture in a positive way...I really just want to understand it. I thought that could kind of happen here, but maybe not today as it looks like this question has been flagged--for some reason? Oh well...HN can't be the forum for everything. I guess I'll have to rely on 1st hand experience again. It's not bad, 1st hand experience is probably better than something you can hear on a forum anyway. I would just love to hear some views from some Japanese people...I know they are here

Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#22
Why is Japan like Japan ? Read about "uchi" and "soto", and how Japanese society was, is, and most likely will be for the foreseeable future, since the gates of Immigration are still closed -- other than for the revolving door they open slightly for sorely needed temporary workers, never to let them stay.

Japanese society is quite different from Chinese society -- whether from China, Taiwan, or elsewhere. From any other, really.

I don't blame them though. Every time I visit the West it just feels like going to hell. ( In Japan for three decades, married to Japanese with Japanese children, who are called, of course, "half". And yet they have a better life in Japan than they could anywhere else. We've been hearing about the decline of Japan since the 90s. Still waiting for it to be the horrible place everyone keeps warning it's becoming. )

Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#23
post #19

While I respect you asking a legitimate question, I would recommend being cautious while reading this thread. Discussions about Japanese culture, and foreign cultures in general, tend to be dominated by westerners retelling ideas they've read by other western people on the internet. Japan not having a large presence in American social networks makes it especially vulnerable to exoticization, speculation, and exaggera…

I don't know...I think this is over cautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people, it sort of sounds like you think we need to discount those views, but I think that's pretty racist (a racist stereotype like if you're not Japanese then you can't think or talk about the culture in anything but a stupid way...very racist to say so), and maybe a part of the insularity I'm trying to investigat…

Shame people flag this...it's an interesting and valid question. I can't fathom why its flagged.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#24

An odd question. They're coming out of, as you note, hundreds of years of isolation. Yes, it's a long time since Commodore Perry set foot on the island, but culture moves slowly and historic behaviors leave evidence for centuries afterwards. Consider how national policies and attitudes around the world have changed over the centuries beyond the scope of your own lifespan. Look at how trends change over large timescal…

But I suppose, why did they isolate in the first place? Plenty of places have been 'isolated' by geography....but then they opened up...Japan resists that...uniquely...right? I mean, that's kind of special. Why? Do you think, like apart from just the general thing of: we didn't have any other influences and culture moves slowly? Now the world is awash in influences...you can open up or you can stay insular. Japan mak…

I would say it's down to the current balance of appetite for conservative policy, as a function of inertia from a conservative history.

Perhaps let's examine the question. Many countries 'opened up'. Japan did also, and readily adopted foreign processes and technologies in the 20th century. If we're referring to immigration, then, sure, they're not keen on it. On that point, they're not actually alone. Countries like Poland are very insular and don't welcome non-whites. Saudi Arabia does not allow casual tourist visa visits and people are typically required to have letters of invitation to enter (https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/importance-of-invitation-lette...)

I wouldn't refer to their attitude as unique, then.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#25
post #19

While I respect you asking a legitimate question, I would recommend being cautious while reading this thread. Discussions about Japanese culture, and foreign cultures in general, tend to be dominated by westerners retelling ideas they've read by other western people on the internet. Japan not having a large presence in American social networks makes it especially vulnerable to exoticization, speculation, and exaggera…

I don't know...I think this is over cautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people, it sort of sounds like you think we need to discount those views, but I think that's pretty racist (a racist stereotype like if you're not Japanese then you can't think or talk about the culture in anything but a stupid way...very racist to say so), and maybe a part of the insularity I'm trying to investigat…

> I aimed to elicit the response from Japanese people about their own culture

This is overly optimistic in my opinion. When I wrote my original comment I didn't see any indication that any of the other commenters had any connection to or expertise regarding Japan, they were speculating based on their own cultures and their own knowledge. In my experience expert opinions are very likely to get buried in a forum like this unless they agree with the mainstream, non-expert view.

> I think this is overcautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people

I never said you should ignore or dismiss people's views completely, just that you should be cautious. There's a lot of speculation going on that you should avoid putting too much faith into.

> so the opinions of other cultures and their experiences of Japan is vitally important

I'll concede that I hadn't considered that point. But on the other hand, do you really trust people getting little information from a insular country to make well-informed opinions. It's part of the story, but stay skeptical of anything you hear.

I brought things up because of my own frustrations with social networks, particularly Reddit (see my username). Lots of Redditors repeating stuff they saw on Reddit with little critical thinking was part of the reason I strayed away and moved here (also the more technical focus here) Any time Redditors discuss topics or cultures that I'm familiar with, I can tell a lot of people are talking out of their ass.

> question has been flagged--for some reason?

This is unfortunate. I do think there is some interesting discussion to be had. As long as you do your due diligence on any discussions here.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#27
I actually like how the Japanese have preserved their culture. With East Asian nations it is easy to fall into the trap of over-westernization as many of Japan's counterparts have done. I think South Korea is the most prominent example.

Korea gave me a very off-putting vibe when I visited. It felt like a massive, heartless tribute to capitalism. I got the sense of a certain perversion of western culture, where a glorification of American culture but no real understanding of it resulted in a strange and confused interpretation that struggles to mix with traditional Korean culture.

Japan on the other hand came across as actually a socialist nation. Wealth tax is heavy and the top bracket of earners don't make much more than the average. There wasn't this glorification of wealth that's so prevalent in western societies. Moreover, in contrast to western nations that prioritize self-interest, they are so organized and respectful of top-down policymaking that it can be seen as a fault in many cases. It made me think if there was one country that could handle climate change, it would be Japan.

Preservation of these different perspectives makes the world interesting, and allows us to learn from each other. Being "insular" is a great thing, in my opinion.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

#29
Why would they want that? Groups with strong ethnic identity (like the Japanese) want their lands to be inherited by their descendants; this is the default historical position. But atm the Japanese are going to zero with their low birthrate, so idk.
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