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Quiet Quitting

ombuds.web.cern.ch

61–70 of 224 posts

Re: Quiet Quitting

#61
I wonder if there's any interplay here with the "radically flat" organizations of our generation, especially in tech.

For better or worse, when I first started out, and the first 2 companies I worked, there were something like 10-15 layers from me to the CEO. This created a hypothetical ladder of responsibilities and titles I felt I could climb, with rungs 3-5 years apart, getting wider the higher you go.

In more recent roles, I have been in 3000 person organizations where even as an IC, I am known to, and speak with, people in the C-suite short of the CEO. I work for someone with 50 people in org, who works for someone with 1500 in their org, who works for the CEO.

A lot of these radically flat orgs expect ICs as "senior engineers" or "staff engineers" or some other made up title to do some ad-hoc mix of IC, people management, project management, etc.

In effect a lot of us get asked to do a job we don't have, and in fact, will never have, given the 50:1, 1500:1, and 3000:1 ratios from IC to each of the 3 levels on the ladder.

The second dimension is that software project lifecycles have always been shorter than traditional engineering, and have become shorter. This leads to a lot of hopping between firms as your project hits peak and is on the disinvest cycle.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#62
post #13

There has been an erosion and change in the nature of the employee-employer relationship. Back in the day that the author initially started working, the nature of the relationship was probably much more balanced: the employee got a decent wage, was trusted to fulfil their duties with reasonable concessions and freedom (sometimes possibly doing overtime if necessary, but also being able to leave early on days when the…

I think the basis of your comment is incorrect. Employees have never had more freedom. Work from home is now widespread. Working hours are more flexible than ever. Workplace benefits have improved drastically over the last 10 years. Percentage of workers with access to maternity/paternity leave is increasing year-over-year.

> There has been an erosion and change in the nature of an employee-employer relationship.

This however, is correct. I believe the cause is counterintuitive. Workers simply have more choice today.

For the last five years (excluding a brief hiccup during the worst of COVID lockdowns) demand for workers has outstripped supply. Low earners can choose between ultra-flexible gig work (Uber, etc) or endless less flexible options. Knowledge workers/tech have enjoyed a hot market where recruiters largely come to them once. The result of this? Average tenure at companies is decreasing. There is always a better opportunity around the corner. Why work hard at your current role for a 10% raise (at best) when you can focus on improving your interview skills and get a 30% raise at the next company?

Young people aren't "quiet quitting", they're just no longer subject to the Stockholm syndrome workers have exhibited over the last 20 years. They realize that maximizing their income means gaining 18 months of experience and moving on. If companies want to get 100% effort out of their employees, they should make sure that internal opportunities are as good as, if not better than, external opportunities.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#63

I finally 'quiet quit' when I realized being a minority in tech means I'll never break the glass ceiling past senior engineer regardless of how hard I work or how visibly I help. Even in school I was shoved into secretarial work until I finally convinced professors to let me work solo and would smoke entire groups. People for some reason think I am good enough to interview for lead or architect then seem surprised wh…

I'm in a similar situation like you are, but i haven't attributed it to being eccentric or weird. It is because im not a low-friction person, in a social sense.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#64
This was a more balanced post than I expected. I'm probably older than the median here on HN and I think it's a generational thing. My parents were of the generation when folks tended to work for a company for a majority of their career and work hard to try to stay. But they grew up influenced by their parent who lived through great depression (technically mine did too but they were young) - jobs were a lifeline. So I'm a couple of generations removed from that and, even though I'm still biased towards 'work hard, job is important' my attitudes have been shifting as well (even though I'm in tech, my wife is a schoolteacher and also works incredibly hard).

I did not enter the workforce at an age where I was constantly deluged with 24 hour news and media feeds that the world is a terrible place. I've talked to multiple folks in the past 5 years or so who were just entering the workforce and they were even wondering what the point in getting married, having kids, etc. was. I have to believe that's a factor as well.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#65
This article is another one in a long line that continues to “not get it.”

First off, just stop saying “quiet quitting” this way. Doing your job isn’t quiet quitting. We should be suspicious of any term like this that suddenly spreads across mass media.

This is the monopoly guys of the world trying to label and shame people for having boundaries and realizing that their hamster wheel leads nowhere. Working hard for someone else’s gain just wastes the one life we were given to us.

If there is a legitimate use for a term called “quiet quitting,” that would be more like pretending to work and legitimately slacking. Completing the required job generally on time isn’t quiet quitting.

The article treats this introduction of healthy boundaries by the youngest generation as if it’s a problem for companies to solve, and suggests that employers start to recognize employees’ accomplishments more.

If what companies want is extremely dedicated employees, I say, that recognition isn’t nearly enough.

Here’s the thing: younger employees are simply following the incentives that corporations are giving them.

Corporations don’t even incentivize extra hard work despite asking for it! They don’t offer commissions or profit sharing unless you’re in sales. They don’t give out bonuses for putting in extra hours or delivering work early. The equity they offer is worthless bullshit that’s filled with caveats.

Corporations rarely promote from within, they hire outside managers and friends of current management, double the word “rarely” if you’re a woman or minority.

Corporations don’t incentivize long tenures, they’d rather you leave or be laid off so that they can run the company like a pro sports team and optimize their labor force. If a team is misallocated, they’d rather lay off the team and hire a whole set of new employees where they’re needed. Retraining and cross-training don’t fit on their balance sheets.

Finally, corporations don’t keep salary increases paced with inflation or career growth so they incentivize job changes.

If you want me to dedicate my life to your company, you better be doing a whole hell of a lot better. Just because I like the work I do doesn’t mean I have better things I can do with my time that I enjoy more.

I’m out of here by 4. If you don’t like it, find someone else.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#66
post #13

There has been an erosion and change in the nature of the employee-employer relationship. Back in the day that the author initially started working, the nature of the relationship was probably much more balanced: the employee got a decent wage, was trusted to fulfil their duties with reasonable concessions and freedom (sometimes possibly doing overtime if necessary, but also being able to leave early on days when the…

I think the problem is when you start trying to get away with doing less than what you're paid for. For example, taking short cuts, hiding issues, or neglecting other responsibilities. In many roles, this would probably work for quite a long time but create massive long-term issues for the company.

[deleted]

Re: Quiet Quitting

#67
post #31

I worked 200% for over 15 years in Silicon Valley. You know how many raises I got without changing jobs? Zero. You know how many promotions I got? Zero. You know how many bonuses I got? Zero. You know how much more work I got assigned? A TON. Hard work only begets hard work these days and not further compensation. The old paths to higher compensation and career growth are dead, and employers killed them. There's no r…

> Times used to be you'd be recognized for your hard work and get raises, bonuses, and promotions but those days are gone. Now you have to change jobs to get ahead. So why put in any extra effort at a temporary job?

I guess it depends on what you're looking for. If you just want to chill, that seems reasonable.

But if you're a climber, it seems reasonable to put in work and ask for extra responsibility that will help you get a better job the next time you switch companies. As long as you put yourself on a timer and switch regularly, I don't see that as being taken advantage of.

I certainly wouldn't fault people for disagreeing with me about this, though.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#68
I'm not particularly happy with the term "Quiet Quitting." I think that, if someone does the job they are expected to do, at the quality level that is expected of them, for a fair compensation, then that does not count as "quitting."

I think the blame for the current mess the American (and this seems to be mostly an American issue) labor force is in, rests squarely on the managers and executives of corporations.

I don't know if I'm just privileged, but I've never worked with anyone that "just wants to get the day over with." I've always worked with people who are passionate about the work they do, and use that passion to "power through" the parts that don't kindle that passion.

But it's pretty important to help folks to feel good about the work they do, and for the place where they spend 1/3 of their life. You want them to give more than 1/3? Make it worth it to them; and it's not just money (but money is important. It is a visceral signal that you are valued).

I was a first-line manager, for a large portion of my career. I seem to have done a fairly good job of keeping my employees motivated, passionate, and engaged. It took a lot of work and humility, on my part. I was not really supported by my superiors, or the HR department. I spent a great deal of time, shielding my employees from the rapacious nature of HR.

I did work for a company that was run by older, more business-oriented folks. There wasn't a ton of money to be made (we were basically specialized, and Quality-oriented), so our top-level leadership was fairly pragmatic. I am so glad that we weren't run by one of these twenty-something billionaires that can't even understand people that aren't rich, or trying to be rich. That sounds like a nightmare.

As far as "work-life balance," I don't see why young people seem to think older folks value this less.

You want to learn about "balance"? Get married and have kids.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#69

> I tried to explain that, when I started to work, and throughout my career, I gave 200% of my energy to my job and it would never have occurred to me to question this. It did not occur to the author that values above 100% of something may be excessive? Somehow, I don't find that convincing. > I also shared with them my view that going “above and beyond your work” was the only way to continue learning and developing…

And people usually make more morning switching jobs every couple of years than staying in the same place. I have been hired several times, with better compensation than people more senior than me who have "been around" for a long time.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#70
"Quiet quitting", because "healthy boundaries and balance" doesn't roll off the tongue quite as smoothly.

Hustle culture is great for those with significant equity, but ultimately happiness comes from within, and work is usually just a stepping stone to finding a sense of purpose beyond making a handful of individuals rich.

Here's to hoping that quiet quitting is merely the beginning.

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