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Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

wired.co.uk

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Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#11

Post by [deleted] »

dekleinewolf wrote: post #3
sn0w_crash wrote: post #2

Is it true that in France it is extremely difficult to fire someone? Are there similar regulatory headaches in other European nations? I’m curious if any founders there have experienced this / can comment.

I guess it depends on your definition of 'extremely difficult', but I can confirm that in many European countries, you can't 'just' fire someone. You either have to have firm proof that the person is severely underperforming (building up a dossier over months or years), or firm proof that the company needs to lay off people. When laying off you can't choose who to lay off, but it has to be on a "last in first out" ba…

[deleted]

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#12

Post by jld89 »

sn0w_crash wrote: post #2

Is it true that in France it is extremely difficult to fire someone? Are there similar regulatory headaches in other European nations? I’m curious if any founders there have experienced this / can comment.

There is indeed a lot of red tape but these are the avenues to fire someone:

- Severe underperformance (building of a dossier over months will be necessary for solid proof).

- The employee doesn't come to work anymore without a valid reason

- There is the 'faute grave' reason. It means that the person did something very very bad in the company, for instance sexual assault, or put critical assets in jeopardy, fraud, blatant misbehavior, stuff like that.

Usually there is at least a 8 month probation period (for engineers and most high paying jobs) in which you can fire someone with between 2 days and 2 weeks notice. No need for a reason whatsoever. (This applies to France)

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#13

Post by yrgulation »

ThalesX wrote: post #4

What a long winded article. I learned about how their office looks like, and how inspiring it is, in the age of remote. I learned about the genders of his team that makes investments. I heard about Klarna and Lilium... I'm going to go ahead and call this a marketing piece for his fund, not any prognosis for how things actually go. As a former CTO for a European startup that started in Eastern Europe, moved to Western…

The best of both worlds is to have us funding and east european r&d. Considering how low taxes are for SE in many countries in the region pay can be high and talent can be attracted. The EU guarantees freedom of movement and as such workers can freely move west to east. The higher take home pay will be very attractive.

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#14

Post by Mountain_Skies »

sn0w_crash wrote: post #2

Is it true that in France it is extremely difficult to fire someone? Are there similar regulatory headaches in other European nations? I’m curious if any founders there have experienced this / can comment.

What's interesting is that the tech industry in the US has developed an ever worsening pathological fear of making bad hires, almost as if they're in a European environment where it is difficult to fire someone. Even though in the US it is still mostly "at-will" should you actually need to let someone go, the hiring practices are becoming increasingly fossilized and fearful of hiring anyone who isn't perfect on day one, which must be a big drag on those companies who really need additional labor to get things done.

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#15

Post by jylam »

jld89 wrote: post #12
sn0w_crash wrote: post #2

Is it true that in France it is extremely difficult to fire someone? Are there similar regulatory headaches in other European nations? I’m curious if any founders there have experienced this / can comment.

There is indeed a lot of red tape but these are the avenues to fire someone: - Severe underperformance (building of a dossier over months will be necessary for solid proof). - The employee doesn't come to work anymore without a valid reason - There is the 'faute grave' reason. It means that the person did something very very bad in the company, for instance sexual assault, or put critical assets in jeopardy, fraud, b…

Not "at least", more like "at most". It's 4months + 4months. And you have to "willing-fully" accept the second 4 months (but they can fire you if you don't).

The "faute grave" you are referring to is the "faute lourde", for which the employee voluntarily caused harm to the company. A "faute grave" is more like a big mistake, harassment, misbehavior, etc.

Basically, you can fire anyone you want if you pay for it. But you'll have to pay, and if the employee is not happy with what they receive, they can go to court (which is very long, most of them won't).

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#16

Post by _Wintermute »

sn0w_crash wrote: post #2

Is it true that in France it is extremely difficult to fire someone? Are there similar regulatory headaches in other European nations? I’m curious if any founders there have experienced this / can comment.

I worked at a French company for a while and witnessed what happens when they wanted to fire a manager. They just brazenly hired his replacement and had them work "along side" the unwanted manager and slowly removed his responsibilities. Everyone knew what was going on, and it was only about 3 months later they were leaving for another company.

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#17

Post by jld89 »

jylam wrote: post #15
jld89 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is indeed a lot of red tape but these are the avenues to fire someone: - Severe underperformance (building of a dossier over months will be necessary for solid proof). - The employee doesn't come to work anymore without a valid reason - There is the 'faute grave' reason. It means that the person did something very very bad in the company, for instance sexual assault, or put critical assets in jeopardy, fraud, b…

Not "at least", more like "at most". It's 4months + 4months. And you have to "willing-fully" accept the second 4 months (but they can fire you if you don't). The "faute grave" you are referring to is the "faute lourde", for which the employee voluntarily caused harm to the company. A "faute grave" is more like a big mistake, harassment, misbehavior, etc. Basically, you can fire anyone you want if you pay for it. But…

Thanks for the corrections! You are of course right, I'm not very up to speed on the different nuances.

If you don't accept the 4 month renewal of the probation period it is usually a firing reason for them... of course YMMV.

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#18

Post by xamolxix »

yrgulation wrote: post #13
ThalesX wrote: post #4

What a long winded article. I learned about how their office looks like, and how inspiring it is, in the age of remote. I learned about the genders of his team that makes investments. I heard about Klarna and Lilium... I'm going to go ahead and call this a marketing piece for his fund, not any prognosis for how things actually go. As a former CTO for a European startup that started in Eastern Europe, moved to Western…

The best of both worlds is to have us funding and east european r&d. Considering how low taxes are for SE in many countries in the region pay can be high and talent can be attracted. The EU guarantees freedom of movement and as such workers can freely move west to east. The higher take home pay will be very attractive.

> workers can freely move west to east

Can't speak for other eastern europen countries, but I'd not move back to the one I come from even for a bigger salary. I might have more money but I'd still have to live in worse conditions (infrastuture, public services, interactions with the state, etc...).

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#19

Post by yrgulation »

xamolxix wrote: post #18
yrgulation wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best of both worlds is to have us funding and east european r&d. Considering how low taxes are for SE in many countries in the region pay can be high and talent can be attracted. The EU guarantees freedom of movement and as such workers can freely move west to east. The higher take home pay will be very attractive.

> workers can freely move west to east Can't speak for other eastern europen countries, but I'd not move back to the one I come from even for a bigger salary. I might have more money but I'd still have to live in worse conditions (infrastuture, public services, interactions with the state, etc...).

East EU countries are doing rather well. Lack of infrastructure is good for investment. A bit like gentrifying neighbourhoods where over time things improve and your investments grow with them.

Re: Europe’s Plan to Beat Silicon Valley at Its Own Game

#20

Post by silexia »

So much fantasy thinking here. The extreme regulatory burden that European countries put on startups guarantees no real garage based startups with vision will get going, just scammy VC backed startups whose sole goal is to reach an exit.

Not to mention the energy train wreck Europe is driving into...

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