Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children' • Hacker News Board

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#151

Post by jacobr1 » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

padolsey wrote: post #52

torstenvl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of which is deeply immoral. Racism is bad mmkay? Hard to believe this is still controversial.

You're not wrong if you align with categorical imperative views on ethics. If however you see the scaled utilitarianist perspective (disentrenching systemic -isms and gaining more equality), then perhaps you'll conclude it is a more muddy landscape than simply "immoral". FWIW, I don't disagree with you. Consider it's not as simple as we want it to be.

I’ve learned most people tend to have different intuitions on giving vs. taking, even when arithmetically they are equivalent. It depends if the narrative is zero or positive-sum.

If people perceive that some groups are getting extra at the expense of others then that is seen as wrong, but if those in need are given communal surplus that is seen as just. In the circumstances of historical injustice you have competing claims that overlap depending upon which details are in focus.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#152

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

azangru wrote: post #126

notart666 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. And well. When it comes to caste, many Indians simply believe it to not exist anymore in India because of how deeply engrained it is in their social classes they never notice i…

> Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. There is something very confusing to me in this paragraph. You put forth as a premise (at least if I am understanding the logic of the paragraph correctly) that fluency in En…

India works on a caste system, said caste system being very discriminatory.

What the other poster meant is that you'll end up hiring out of the upper castes and they'll display a lot of bias towards other castes.

It's to the point that many from India won't admit to the caste they're in.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#153

Post by lloydatkinson » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #110

notart666 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. And well. When it comes to caste, many Indians simply believe it to not exist anymore in India because of how deeply engrained it is in their social classes they never notice i…

English is an official language over there, but it is spoken differently.

Different indeed. Every sentence sounds like a question with a small delay before the last word of the sentence.

I have no idea why this is, but you can see it in literally any Indian engineering lecture recording on YouTube. It definitely does not inspire confidence they know the topic they are teaching.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#154

Post by ajsnigrutin » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

danmur wrote: post #55

Huh1337 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing for more women/minorities in STEM/leadership positions = you're fixing the global problem, doing the opposite = you're making the global problem worse.

I dunno what other industries are like but I've interviewed quite a few software engineers this year and only had a couple women apply. I don't have much of an opinion on hiring incentives but it seems like focusing on the education system would be more effective.

How about we acknowledge that men and women are different and that includes our interests? Maybe women in general are not as interested in stem in such numbers as men are (of course, bell curves, etc.)

I know it's monkeys, not people, but experiments have been done:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

> We compared the interactions of 34 rhesus monkeys, living within a 135 monkey troop, with human wheeled toys and plush toys. Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#155

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #149

webmobdev wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is justifying racism, just explaining identity politics that unconsciously makes us biased towards someone who shares similar values with us. It's more obvious in the USA as it is a multi-cultural country made of immigrants, who generally tend to feel insecure and thus tend to turn to their own community to feel more secure. Unfortunately this insecurity is often exploited by right-wing politicians and used by…

“It becomes part of self-worth to value one's cohort above those that are seen as opressive.” Meaning that its ok to be racist against the race that is perceived as oppressive. I dont subscribe to that and it proves my point. There is a sense of “racial preference” and the justification is that comment above. I think an eye for an eye will make us all blind and it needs to stop. We really need to move beyond this non…

Misrepresenting the point that was being made, to manufacture an objection.

It was a description of identity politics, made to clarify why attitudes are different in different places/peoples. Not some kind of policy suggestion.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#156

Post by jwond » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

sumeno wrote: post #111

aliqot wrote: post #4

How does this differ from companies and elected officials openly saying right now that females and minorities are preferred for X position, like vice president of USA or CEO of Reddit?

Few things make me feel as gross about reading this website than all the whining about discrimination against white men.

Could you explain why?

Do you think white men aren’t being discriminated against? Do you think white men are being discriminated against and just don’t like seeing people talk about it? Or maybe some other reason?

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#157

Post by marcusverus » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

dendriti wrote: post #41

seper8 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't, but you can't discriminate against white men. /s

Folks, this is not difficult to understand unless you're deliberately being obtuse. There's legal and illegal discrimination. Some forms of legal discrimination do amount to discrimination against White people. When we say "Discrimination is wrong" we are almost always talking about illegal discrimination. Just crying out that "But.... but you said discrimination is wrong!" really isn't the 'argument' you think it is…

You seem to be confused. There is zero doubt that the two parents understand that one is legal and the other illegal, hence they are quite clearly discussing the topic from a moral standpoint.

Anyway, surely you don't think legal discrimination necessarily moral discrimination? After all, Jim Crow was perfectly legal.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#158

Post by Swenrekcah » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

aliqot wrote: post #76

Swenrekcah wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many don’t even acknowledge that their policies are discriminatory. But it’s still a good argument to point out that discriminatory diversity policies are discriminatory. Because that forces those that advocate for them to lay out their justifications and also at what point the policy is no longer needed. I’m not against affirmative action where it makes sense, but it’s a heavy handed policy and as such needs very go…

Affirmative action is bigotry of low expectations by another name. Imagine if I were a minority doctor who benefited from this, my patients will always wonder if I'm less-than. Nobody wants to go to a cardiologist that was bottom of their class, so why instill that doubt and call it a leg up?

Sure, but it’s usually not like that though. All the people who get into med-school are talented even though the selection process was unfair in this regard.

Like I said, this can be an overall good. For example, let’s say I run a small software shop where everybody is male. Now, it’s not likely that a woman would accept a job offer because of the environment. So if I were the boss I’d hold off on hiring until I can get three people at the same time and work hard to make all of them women, to the point I wouldn’t look at male applicants. After that the workplace would hopefully be more balanced and for the next hire gender wouldn’t matter.

Is this unfair towards the men applying? It absolutely is, and that’s why I would only consider this as a one-time thing for a clear and specific goal.

This is in the context of a small private company, I believe nationwide policies need specific goals and targets infinitely more.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#159

Post by deodar » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

mkl95 wrote: post #53

I was a consultant for an American company that also hired dozens of cheap consultants from development countries. Mostly India but also neighbouring countries and some Eastern European countries. Indians were by far the hardest to work with. They ghosted women systematically which was a nightmare for our project manager. They also lied shamelessly about their qualifications which led to absurd situations. The proble…

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Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#160

Post by sarmasamosarma » Sun, Oct 09, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

azangru wrote: post #126

notart666 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. And well. When it comes to caste, many Indians simply believe it to not exist anymore in India because of how deeply engrained it is in their social classes they never notice i…

> Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. There is something very confusing to me in this paragraph. You put forth as a premise (at least if I am understanding the logic of the paragraph correctly) that fluency in En…

No post body was provided.