German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage • Hacker News Board

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#51

Post by sneak » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #4

Maybe I am tinfoiling too hard... In February this year there was an attack against Vodafone Portugal that brought down their whole mobile networks, 4G, 5G, and fiber, taking them several days to bring everything back up [0]. It also very clearly was a state actor, no threats, no ransom, sophisticated. Taking down pipelines, taking down comms, taking down transport infrastructure. All within a few months. Always on N…

NATO is big. There is nothing as yet to suggest this is international and not just normal domestic crime.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#52

Post by coretx » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:25 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #40

Roark66 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in north-east Poland we're quite used to it. The most frequent are GPS spoofing and lte jamming. Its not like they even try to hide their location or anything. If I was to put my tinfoil hat on I would say those current attacks concentrate on Germany because due to long standing influence of Russians on German politics German's political class is a de-facto ally of Russia (against the will of its own population)…

I don't buy that theory. First of all: outside of the party "Die Linke" and the left wing of the SPD, there's little ideological friendship to Russia in German politics, it's either regular corruption (Gerhard Schröder) or industrial politics ("you give us cheap energy, we keep our eyes closed and don't mention the smell"). If anything, actions like these will make Germans more willing to spend extra money on defense…

You both are right. Don't forget that "Die Linke", "SPD" and other marxist invested parties serve the same role today as they did during the first cold war. Their ideology works towards a class struggle by uncivil means, destabilising their democracy. The same goes for their economic policy, it would drive the country into the ground. Or the "greens" using terror and fear campaigning against nuclear energy in the past; it got us where we are today. Point being: There is no need for ideological friendship/alignment for actors to be on the Russian side. Many people are simply controlled without realising it.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#53

Post by s9w » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

hugh-avherald wrote: post #49

blumomo wrote: post #38

Coincidentally there are very big demonstrations scheduled for today in Berlin. Trains not running to Berlin is definitely reducing the amount of participants joining these events. Just saying.

For what cause?

No post body was provided.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#54

Post by lbriner » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

blumomo wrote: post #38

Coincidentally there are very big demonstrations scheduled for today in Berlin. Trains not running to Berlin is definitely reducing the amount of participants joining these events. Just saying.

Why would they care about demonstrations? It is much easier to allow them and then ignore them than it would be if someone admitted to sabotaging a railway line to reduce numbers.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#55

Post by Garlef » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

My guess would be that it's sabotage from the left wing since there's a right wing protest today in Berlin that is done mostly by non-Berliners. (There's also a lot of busses bringing in protesters.)

There was a similar (co-)incident a few years ago.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#56

Post by chiefalchemist » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #41

chiefalchemist wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this tinfoiling? The tinfoiler would think it's an inside (NATO) job. That these things are being done to maintain the fear, to increase the military budgets (i.e., money that could be spent on social programs), to increase the us v them unity, etc. Like 1984? But perhaps The MIC qualifies as a state actor? As it's said...follow the money. There are so many entities that benefit from such things it's difficult…

> That these things are being done to maintain the fear, to increase the military budgets Somehow I think the shooting war in Europe right now is doing that just fine without the need for tinfoil. If there's anything that does not need to be further incentivized among European populations and governments right now, it's NATO coordination.

From your side of the fence, I'd imagine that's true.

On the other hand, as I understand it, the other side some years ago expressed concerns about encouragement on their borders*. In fact, I've heard it said there was an agreement that wouldn't happen...then it did. But that depth is lost? How convenient.

Once you accept (?) the lies about the WMDs then it becomes clear that there are actors that have no bounds. Believe what you must, but chance are good it's based on one side of the story (as it so often is).

* Very similar to UBL saying get out of our neighborhood, or else. But we don't want to talk about that as it dilutes the strength of the propaganda.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#57

Post by Xylakant » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

hendrikrassmann wrote: post #24

captainmuon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. So they are essentially providing free pentesting. And creating a climate that allows governments to introduce much stronger security measures. Without creating much actual damage. Also I wonder if it was a physical oder purely software attack? If it was a physical attack on a critical system, it could have…

There are reports that a cable was severed. ( https://twitter.com/gebauerspon/status/1578706469570351104 ) But it's just a tweet. Don't know for sure.

Tagesschau, citing the federal police, reports that two cables at two locations in germany were cut https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html

The locations are a few hundred kilometers apart.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#58

Post by 411111111111111 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #43

captainmuon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. So they are essentially providing free pentesting. And creating a climate that allows governments to introduce much stronger security measures. Without creating much actual damage. Also I wonder if it was a physical oder purely software attack? If it was a physical attack on a critical system, it could have…

The German security landscape in general is in a pretty bad shape, hence such pentesting isn't all that valuable. Patch one vector, dozens or hundreds left open, and there is neither a strong security mindset nor a realistic option to implement meaningful security in infrastructure that often as not is decades old, fully analog, built without any security considerations at all, and falling apart on its own. IT securi…

Surprisingly, there was a video that aired just yesterday which talked about how deeply entrenched Russia is in Germanys IT infrastructure.

(German) https://youtu.be/dtZf-A4Qd5k

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#59

Post by TonyTrapp » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

jaclaz wrote: post #14

moogly wrote: post #3

Just cut, not stolen? Has Germany been spared from overhead line theft? It's been a regular thing in Sweden for a decade or so. https://www.thelocal.se/20120404/40090/ https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2021-08-11-copper-thefts-c... They're also now stealing copper sheets from graveyard buildings and church doors, plus grave adornments.

It is not clear if it is copper (communication, not power) cables or fibre.

Other articles (e.g. https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html) do mention fibre cables.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#60

Post by dividedbyzero » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 2:50 PM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #48

dividedbyzero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German security landscape in general is in a pretty bad shape, hence such pentesting isn't all that valuable. Patch one vector, dozens or hundreds left open, and there is neither a strong security mindset nor a realistic option to implement meaningful security in infrastructure that often as not is decades old, fully analog, built without any security considerations at all, and falling apart on its own. IT securi…

> IT security is pretty catastrophic (German law makes it hard to do it properly, it's much stricter than e.g. the corresponding US law) To chime in on this, if you're in Germany and report a security vulnerability to a vendor there's a very good chance you'll get a criminal investigation, house searched, computers/phones seized for a long time etc. in return. Often in combination with a cease and desist or civil cha…

> If you have talents in the area, just go to the US.

I believe most simply go to another EU country since that's extremely easy to do and you can still serve the German market easily.