SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc • Hacker News Board

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#391

Post by ncallaway » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:28 PM UTC

jijji wrote: post #250

kanetw wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. It's easily going to be in the 5 digits.

you can call an attorney and pay an hourly fee usually between 100 - 400/hr to talk with an attorney about your case or pay a retainer fee for 10 hours... attorneys that throw out 5 digit numbers when asked for a price are rip offs

Right, but the suggestion wasn't "have a short consult with a lawyer". That's not cheap, but definitely won't break the bank for most small businesses.

The suggestion was "hire a legal representative" to be the corporate witness. I would assume that's a suggestion similar to the one in this article (https://www.agilelaw.com/blog/hiring-a-lawyer-to-be-your-30b...) about hiring a lawyer to be your 30(b)(6) deponent.

So, let's assume we hire a lawyer at $300/hour. Let's say they'll be a witness for 6 hours. But, they need to be carefully briefed and prepped on all the topics that they would need to be a witness for. Maybe that's 40 hours of work.

46*$300 = $13,800.

As the article on 30(b)(6) depositions notes: "So to do it right, the lawyer will need to be thoroughly prepped on the 30(b)(6) notice topics, which will certainly take time and cost the client money. No one said litigation is cheap."

I think most small-businesses would probably choose to use an internal employee to be their corporate representatives, especially in a matter such as this where they aren't directly involved in the litigation.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#392

Post by georgewsinger » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:29 PM UTC

urthor wrote: post #390

georgewsinger wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We understand Meta sometimes future projects that their devices will have broad office applications, but we're skeptical it has any teeth. Consider that Atari tried to compete with office PCs in the early 80s with their 8-bit family, and failed: https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_... It's hard to focus on multiple things at once, and we're skeptical that the bureaucratic forces in play at a l…

https://twitter.com/jasuminsui/status/1577867376522973185?t=... I assume you've read?

I haven't read. Will check it out!

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#393

Post by Karrot_Kream » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:31 PM UTC

random314 wrote: post #346

vineyardmike wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a lot less important than Ben but just wanted to +1 that it’s pretty compelling use case once experiencing it. It’s not there yet, mostly due to resolution issues and long term comfort issues, but it’s close enough to show it’s absolutely viable. I bought the quest2 since it was cheap as a pandemic entertainment device and while I never play it, I regularly wish for a VR monitor (eg a high res nreal air)

What about loss of facial expressivity? I guess whispering to your neighbor works a lot better. And how is the whiteboarding experience?

A lot of Quest games can actually turn audio into mouth movements on an avatar. I play Walkabout Mini Golf with my friends a lot and it's incredible how natural the mouth movements seem to match my friends' speech. I'll turn to them complaining about par on a hole and I'll see them speak in response.

The new Quest headsets are supposed to have some features for facial expression tracking for exactly this reason. But yeah, no doubt there's still a ways to go for the experience to be worthwhile.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#394

Post by Karrot_Kream » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:37 PM UTC

Eisenstein wrote: post #349

towaway15463 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I think that both TV and movies are going to be driving VR adoption. The Netflix of VR movies could be huge if they were able to offer the right content. A fully virtual theatre that gets new releases could also be big. The edge that VR had in these areas is that it essentially gives you a private theatre that you can enjoy with your friends and family. Leveraging a social network so that you can deliver…

I love VR, but it is terrible for things like watching movies. Imagine sitting on your couch and putting on a movie. How often do you do that? If it is more often than 'once in a while', are you actually sitting and watching it intently the entire timee? Are you eating, or drinking anything, or petting your cat or dog, or snuggling on the couch with your SO or kids? You can't do that with a VR headset on because you…

> Exceptions of course would be to do it with someone remotely, like a friend or a family member -- it is a good way to potentially 'hang out' with people who aren't physically there. But the same caveats apply.

An increasing number of relationships are happening purely remotely. My company went fully remote due to the pandemic and I've started building working relationships, and yes a friendship even, with new employees completely remotely. And I'm a millenial who remembers a distinct separation between the online and offline (and the modem tones lol). (Though I was a very online kid and have made many internet friends over the years.)

Younger relatives of mine don't see as strong a separation and they have friends who they made in primary school that they stayed in touch with despite families moving a long ways away because of how easy remote communication is these days; when I was a kid moving locales meant a new set of friends. It's this demographic and this world that I think is poised to enter VR experiences en masse. Gen X and older Millenials probably still have too strong concepts of "offline" and "online" (and usually prioritize "offline" over "online") to break this barrier down (as you say, a quintessential part of the "offline" experience is snuggling with your dog or an SO) but I'm pretty confident that younger folks won't see this distinction as pronounced. I might be wrong of course.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#395

Post by bgribble » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:38 PM UTC

georgewsinger wrote: post #51

cableshaft wrote: post #40

>We're don't view ourselves in competition with Meta >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops. Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PC…

We understand Meta sometimes future projects that their devices will have broad office applications, but we're skeptical it has any teeth. Consider that Atari tried to compete with office PCs in the early 80s with their 8-bit family, and failed: https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_... It's hard to focus on multiple things at once, and we're skeptical that the bureaucratic forces in play at a l…

As a very nearsighted programmer suffering from increasing age-related farsightedness, I often fantasize about a VR headset that would allow me to comfortably focus (say 6 feet away while wearing contacts) on a huge virtual tmux session for coding.

I don't know if this is even remotely a possibility but it sure would beat dealing with constant CSS (can't see s*t)

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#396

Post by georgewsinger » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:41 PM UTC

richard___ wrote: post #372

chaostheory wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at the new videos related to the upcoming Quest Pro that will be announced next week, the simulavr guys are dead wrong. https://www.reddit.com/r/AR_MR_XR/comments/xwjzni/meta_quest...

The AR pass through in that clip blows the simulavr pass through wayyyyy out the water!!!

We're working on camera boards now for our AR Mode (it will likely be featured in our an engineering update next week). After our boards are finished (~2-4 weeks), we'll be able to integrate them into our review units for our first integrated camera tests.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#397

Post by elcomet » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

saghm wrote: post #353

cableshaft wrote: post #40

>We're don't view ourselves in competition with Meta >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops. Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PC…

>> >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops. > Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PCs and laptops, you haven't been watching some of…

This is a weird take considering that simulavr is still taking preorders and doesn't plan to ship until 2023. They both have non-existent products right now

Or maybe I'm wrong and they are already selling a product? I didn't see it on the website.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#398

Post by ece » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:48 PM UTC

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #376

ece wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VR is still up for grabs Curious statement, considering the FTC is trying to preserve competition in the space. Excite and Altavista weren't trying to buy up the biggest websites around at the time.

Yes and they are overreaching in response to a perceived miss many years ago when FB bought Instagram. The VR market is so young and small that it doesn't need regulatory intervention. Let's allow it play out a little bit before we get regulators involved who think things like: this app is something which "proves the value of virtual reality to users". And yeah, they were, and they were being bought and sold, and Yah…

From your link, the FTC says:

> "Meta already owns a best-selling virtual reality fitness app, and it had the capabilities to compete even more closely with Within’s popular Supernatural app. But Meta chose to buy market position instead of earning it on the merits."

I don't buy that VR is so young, we're a couple generations in now on multiple platforms. There are still new entrants in the space, which is good, and they would be negatively impacted if there were less established independent developers. Facebook had a head start, and they're trying their best to lock up the market before Apple/others enter it.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#399

Post by alain94040 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:54 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #317

tannhauser23 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You. Work. With. The. Attorneys. Why is this so hard to grasp. This subpoena is to get certain market information. SimulaVR can negotiate with Meta to provide the information in a way that's not super burdensome for them. I did this all the time when I was a lawyer. SimulaVR is a FRIENDLY WITNESS for Meta, since they can presumably provide evidence that Meta operates in a competitive VR market. This means Meta's lawy…

Judging by the responses in this thread, it seems like many folks on HN have never worked with an attorney before (which isn't too surprising). Do you have any advice on how to find a competent attorney with reasonable fees who can do the specific work that you need done? The one time I had to do this for my business on short notice, I used Yelp and Google, and it was somewhat disastrous. I think it would be really h…

I'll chime in to say that I was very happy with @grellas's firm in Silicon Valley. I found them the right mix of startup-friendly and competent in tech issues. (grellas.com).

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#400

Post by bamboozled » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 11:56 PM UTC

towaway15463 wrote: post #340

bamboozled wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it’s the next big thing you know a better iHeadset will follow months later and be a much better product with less privacy and data theft built in.

Except it will have no games, cost $4k and will probably be difficult to port anything to. Great for Apple’s current mbpro market but ignored by everyone else.

People will still line up to buy it, probably me included, I'm a super keen Linux user too.