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SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

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Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#351

Post by chaostheory »

majormajor wrote: post #199
georgewsinger wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We understand Meta sometimes future projects that their devices will have broad office applications, but we're skeptical it has any teeth. Consider that Atari tried to compete with office PCs in the early 80s with their 8-bit family, and failed: https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_... It's hard to focus on multiple things at once, and we're skeptical that the bureaucratic forces in play at a l…

"We don't think they're competent enough to be a competitor" is a bad way to judge whether you're competing with someone. It's like Apple laughing at the IBM PC.

Looking at the new videos related to the upcoming Quest Pro that will be announced next week, the simulavr guys are dead wrong.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AR_MR_XR/comments/xwjzni/meta_quest...

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#352

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

As someone who is not a lawyer, my question is what are the potential response avenues to a subpoena like this. That is, Meta has essentially demanded a ton of work from SimulaVR, for free. I very much agree with Simula's response of "We can't afford stuff like this".

So, realistically, what are Simula's options? I imagine a "fuck off" response won't go over well with the court. Can they give some cursory information? Is there some way they can challenge the subpoena as overly burdensome?

I hate how our legal system makes it so easy to demand work from someone else, when the burden on the demanding party is so extremely low. Why shouldn't Meta need to pay hundreds of dollars an hour for the information they are requesting? The lawyers are definitely charging that much.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#353

Post by saghm »

cableshaft wrote: post #40

>We're don't view ourselves in competition with Meta >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops. Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PC…

>> >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops.

> Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PCs and laptops, you haven't been watching some of their recent videos about the new headsets and prototype headsets they're working on. He very much is aiming for that market with future devices (not the Quest 2).

It sounds like they're saying that Meta doesn't currently sell anything that competes with what they're currently selling, and the info you give doesn't seem to contradict that. I'd question the premise that releasing a marketing video for a product that doesn't exist counts as being "in competition". They might be in competition in the future, but it doesn't seem like they are right now.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#354

Post by moomin »

jamiequint wrote: post #350
moomin wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s definitely a heel move. I also fail to see how a small unprofitable firm (like most startups) is evidence of competition.

WhatsApp was a small unprofitable firm before they got bought for $18bn

Unprofitable, maybe.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#355

Post by jessaustin »

tannhauser23 wrote: post #187
HillRat wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is very much the aggressor -- in response to the FTC suit, their immediate response was to try and use the courts to strong-arm hundreds of competitors into giving up massive troves of highly sensitive commercial secrets without any kind of formal protection, such as limiting document review to FB's outside counsel. It's ridiculous, it's abusive, it's overbroad, and it's transparently an effort to burden Fac…

Welcome to the American legal system. Facebook did nothing wrong here. When I was an attorney and involved with these kinds of subpoenas, we always worked with the third-parties to make document production less burdensome for them. SimulaVR should be working with Meta's attorneys on this instead of throwing a hissy fit online.

Welcome to the American legal system.

This isn't as strong a justification as one might imagine. That system sucks in many ways. Recently we learned that DoJ routinely take every document held by particular targeted law firms, without warrants, and then designate "taint teams" of DoJ lawyers who view every document and suggest which ones should be seen by investigators. [0] The idea is that the taint team will forget all the documents they've seen when they later investigate other clients of the targeted law firms. Many judges have ordered this practice stopped, but DoJ DGAF.

This taint team concept obviously is unconstitutional and undermines justice, but ISTM the practice you describe is worse. When Meta's lawyers view documentation extracted from SimulaVR, they do so as agents of Meta. Their current stated goal may be to defend Meta in the present suit, but there's no reason to believe that's the only goal they'll ever have. Have Meta promised to throw away all documents after some of them have been presented to the court? Is there some sort of escrow concept that allows SimulaVR to trust someone other than Meta's lawyers? The danger to SimulaVR is actually greater if Meta are telling the truth that they are competitors!

If Meta actually were competitors of SimulaVR, it would be easy to show that by hiring an expert to testify that "this service and/or product sold by SimulaVR competes with this other service and/or product sold by Meta". The sort of thing described in TFA has other purposes.

[0] https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-justice-department-was-dan...

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#356

Post by ekianjo »

piggybox wrote: post #43
ekianjo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not share to the FTC themselves and not META so that you can still keep it confidential from your competition?

Because FTC isn't the defendant. How would anyone share counter evidence to the plaintiff?

then how about a neutral third party?

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#357

Post by TheRealPomax »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #192
unknownaccount wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its still unethical. First off its not that big enough of a deal to warrant the financial obliteration of a small buisness via legal fees/airfare/hotels etc. Nobody died or has their life at stake here. Second off the company should be compensated for their expenses(lost buisness/airfare/legal fees). If this doesnt happen, then its clearly a court unjustly financially harming a small buisness. Thankfully we live in a…

> You try to downplay the severity by saying "only Meta lawyers can see the contents" but that is still wrong. Whos to say these lawyers wont steal your trade secrets and use them to their own advantage? They are ethically and legally bound not to. They can be disbarred, sanctioned, sued by SimulaVR, even thrown in prison. You're here ranting about the US court system, but you're wrong about a lot of it.

Lawyers, especially highly paid giant-tech-firm representing lawyers, tend to play by the rules when it comes to the actual court process itself. Could they pass all this confidential information on to Mark? Absolutely, trivially so even. Would it be a crime to do so? Absolutely also that. Are they going to risk their firm for a client? No lawyer playing at the level of Meta or Apple would be that stupid.

When it comes to lawyers, you get what you pay for, and Meta pays a lot for excellent lawyers who make sure they do everything by the book and follow the letter of the law where possible, and the spirit of the law where it can be defended if it needs to be, in order to get cases thrown out or settled before they make it to actual trial.

Most cases die in discovery, exactly because the lawyers (and only the lawyers) get to see everyone's cards, and get to say "look we can go to trial, but we've both seen all the documents, and it's plainly clear that one of us is right".

"But they can air all that dirty laundry during trial!" no, they can't, because unless that dirty laundry is necessary to demonstrate competition, which would be stupidly unlikely, you don't just get to reveal every document that your legal team has access to just because you feel like it. Doing so can get you removed from trial, sanctioned, or even disbarred, depending on how severe the impact of your misconduct is. The current issue is about discovery: you and your team (and NOT your client) get to find the information you need by sifting through thousands of documents.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#358

Post by novok »

saghm wrote: post #353
cableshaft wrote: post #40

>We're don't view ourselves in competition with Meta >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops. Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PC…

>> >...Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity devices which are aimed at replacing PCs and laptops. > Hate to break it to you, but if you don't think that Mark Zuckerberg is actively trying to create VR devices that are general-purpose productivity devices aimed at replacing PCs and laptops, you haven't been watching some of…

There is a segment that uses the virtual desktop with the oculus quest 2 quite extensively, so you still have that argument with their current lineup of devices IMO.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#359

Post by tannhauser23 »

jonas21 wrote: post #317
tannhauser23 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You. Work. With. The. Attorneys. Why is this so hard to grasp. This subpoena is to get certain market information. SimulaVR can negotiate with Meta to provide the information in a way that's not super burdensome for them. I did this all the time when I was a lawyer. SimulaVR is a FRIENDLY WITNESS for Meta, since they can presumably provide evidence that Meta operates in a competitive VR market. This means Meta's lawy…

Judging by the responses in this thread, it seems like many folks on HN have never worked with an attorney before (which isn't too surprising). Do you have any advice on how to find a competent attorney with reasonable fees who can do the specific work that you need done? The one time I had to do this for my business on short notice, I used Yelp and Google, and it was somewhat disastrous. I think it would be really h…

Unfortunately I think word of mouth is the best way to find good attorneys. Ask people who run similar businesses as you who they use? If there's a chamber of commerce in your city or town, you could ask them for references.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#360

Post by towaway15463 »

Eisenstein wrote: post #349
towaway15463 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I think that both TV and movies are going to be driving VR adoption. The Netflix of VR movies could be huge if they were able to offer the right content. A fully virtual theatre that gets new releases could also be big. The edge that VR had in these areas is that it essentially gives you a private theatre that you can enjoy with your friends and family. Leveraging a social network so that you can deliver…

I love VR, but it is terrible for things like watching movies. Imagine sitting on your couch and putting on a movie. How often do you do that? If it is more often than 'once in a while', are you actually sitting and watching it intently the entire timee? Are you eating, or drinking anything, or petting your cat or dog, or snuggling on the couch with your SO or kids? You can't do that with a VR headset on because you…

Well, I do watch movies with others in VR on a fairly regular basis and it’s great. Could be better, headsets need to be more comfortable and pass through has room for improvement but both of those things are on the very near horizon.

Look at the cambria demos, they’re already doing mixed reality by blending the room with the experience. No reason that can’t be used to put your couch, coffee table and SO in the virtual theatre. You also have to consider that a lot of the younger people using these won’t have dogs or kids to worry about.

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