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SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

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Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#341

Post by Ajedi32 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #166
benreesman wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that with all such things, that a hacker's opinion on the relevant law is probably `/r/ConfidentlyIncorrect`. I have no opinion on the substantial legal matters at question. It's been my observation that the ranking folks at Meta in the VR world are as ethical as fiduciary obligation permits, but YMMV. I thank you for your reply and hope that you agree that a substantial legal matter which will inevitably b…

Wether it's reasonable or not is orthogonal to the law. It's not because something is legal that it should be a thing. I think that whether or not this is legal, the idea Meta can access internal documentation from a smaller competitor is unreasonable.

Sure, but do we even know what the law currently says on this matter? I've seen a lot of speculation in the comments here, but very few facts. Even the original blog post seems to have been written before consulting an attorney.

For example, does the law have any mechanism for compensating SimulaVR for their work on this case? What mechanisms exist for appeal? Does Meta have free reign to examine the subpoenaed documents, or are there restrictions on how that information can be used and who can see it?

It just seems to me you ought to know what the law says first before arguing it needs to be changed. Chesterton's Fence and all that...

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#342

Post by WaitWaitWha »

kanetw wrote: post #148
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #146

You need to get a lawyer. I am not a lawyer, but I annoy them daily. You can decide not to appear, but you can be held in contempt. Note that your subpoena comes from the court, not Meta. You need to get the lawyer to negotiate down what to provide. The first salvo is always everything, including the kitchen sink. You need a lawyer to know to whom to talk to. You need to get the lawyer to negotiate the expenses assoc…

First thing we did was get a lawyer.

Thank you. It did not come across in your blog post.

May your lawyer be cheap, vicious, despicable, and never-losing.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#344

Post by [deleted] »

imdsm wrote: post #102
LeonenTheDK wrote: post #8

Well that is unfortunate. I would not want to be in Simula's position, I'm sure they've got enough on their plate without having to deal with stuff like this that they barely have an impact on in the first place. I understand that Meta needs to prove they're not a monopoly, and apparently the way to do that is through other companies laying their cards on the table, but my goodness would I feel uncomfortable giving c…

Surely if Meta need another company to help them prove something, Meta should have to compensate them. Sure, the government should be able to COMMAND a company to appear, but for one legal entity to COMMAND another legal entity to perform work and make an appearance at a place, in my mind as a Brit, seems entirely wrong. Time to throw my Quest on eBay, not sure I want to be a part of this.

[deleted]

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#345

Post by zmmmmm »

I do wonder if this blog post might be used by Meta in a way the authors didn't intend. Stating that they are not at all worried about competition from Meta is exactly what Meta needs to present as evidence.

Aside from that I'm not convinced SimulaVR shouldn't be worried. Regardless of whether Meta is targeting the productivity space intentionally (it is, I think) SimulaVR can very easily be a casualty of their dominance. For example I was interested in buying into SimulaVR but I probably won't if the Quest Pro is even close to good enough because along with that I get access to all the Oculus games etc.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#346

Post by random314 »

vineyardmike wrote: post #269
bin_bash wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben Thompson is fairly bullish on Enterprise Metaverses after having used Workrooms: https://stratechery.com/2021/enterprise-metaverses-horizon-w... > I don’t want to go too far given I’ve only tried Workrooms out once, but this feels like something real. And, just as importantly, there is, thanks to COVID, a real use case. Of course companies will need to be convinced, and hardware will need to be bought, but that’s…

I’m a lot less important than Ben but just wanted to +1 that it’s pretty compelling use case once experiencing it. It’s not there yet, mostly due to resolution issues and long term comfort issues, but it’s close enough to show it’s absolutely viable. I bought the quest2 since it was cheap as a pandemic entertainment device and while I never play it, I regularly wish for a VR monitor (eg a high res nreal air)

What about loss of facial expressivity? I guess whispering to your neighbor works a lot better. And how is the whiteboarding experience?

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#347

Post by dangrossman »

M4v3R wrote: post #124
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a subpoena from a legal team, NOT a court. You are free to write “we don’t know” for much of the questions or even write “too burdensome to answer”. Such subpoenas have little teeth. Hire a lawyer for a few hours to confirm what I say since I’m some random internet guy.

From the article: We've also been commanded to drop everything we're doing and go tesify on these matters _in person_, thousands of miles away from us, by the stated deadline :| So it's not just a matter of writing "we don't know". They have to produce a lot of material and then travel 1000's of miles to show up in the court in person.

I was once subpoenaed by the state of New York. It was worded similarly, asking for a bunch of information and my personal appearance. I have never lived or worked in New York, and at the time was just a broke college student, so taking time off school to fly there would be more than an inconvenience. The information they sought was related to a fraud case, and their fraudster had bought something from one of my websites in the past. After I actually talked to the investigators over email, they never actually expected me to travel to New York, they were just looking for dates and IP addresses relating to these sales, which I emailed and my participation in their investigation was over. They didn't actually want me to go to New York, that was just boilerplate.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#348

Post by haneefmubarak »

jolmg wrote: post #327
LeonenTheDK wrote: post #8

Well that is unfortunate. I would not want to be in Simula's position, I'm sure they've got enough on their plate without having to deal with stuff like this that they barely have an impact on in the first place. I understand that Meta needs to prove they're not a monopoly, and apparently the way to do that is through other companies laying their cards on the table, but my goodness would I feel uncomfortable giving c…

> I understand that Meta needs to prove they're not a monopoly, and apparently the way to do that is through other companies laying their cards on the table, but my goodness would I feel uncomfortable giving core business plans, outlooks, and associated data to a huge (and arguably unethical) company like Meta. This seems too considerate to Meta. IMO, part of Meta's intention is to hurt SimulaVR. It wouldn't be by ac…

IANAL, but it came from a court because it's a court order. Failing to respond would be contempt of court - an imprison able offense.

AIUI, the reason that courts order cooperation for this sort of thing is that every party deserves the right in court to defend themselves as best as is possible. If in order to defend themselves they require information that they cannot present themselves but that someone else can (say your alibi was being at work - your boss could confirm that), then it becomes that party's civic duty to cooperate with the courts and make sure that the appropriate information can be yielded to ensure a just decision. If there are concerns about cost or potential secrecy/privacy implications, someone who is subpoenaed can bring that up with the judge who can then work with all parties to appropriately manage the situation.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#349

Post by Eisenstein »

towaway15463 wrote: post #338
ehnto wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very different experience to how we currently consume media, and I am not really sure it has mass appeal even with some kind of perfect execution. I am prepared to be totally wrong mind you. It's an incredible tool and way to engage with virtual worlds, but the question we should be asking isn't "Is VR technology good enough" which I think people get stuck on. Really the question is "Does everyone want to be i…

Personally, I think that both TV and movies are going to be driving VR adoption. The Netflix of VR movies could be huge if they were able to offer the right content. A fully virtual theatre that gets new releases could also be big. The edge that VR had in these areas is that it essentially gives you a private theatre that you can enjoy with your friends and family. Leveraging a social network so that you can deliver…

I love VR, but it is terrible for things like watching movies. Imagine sitting on your couch and putting on a movie. How often do you do that? If it is more often than 'once in a while', are you actually sitting and watching it intently the entire timee? Are you eating, or drinking anything, or petting your cat or dog, or snuggling on the couch with your SO or kids? You can't do that with a VR headset on because you can't see anything else at all. If you grab for a glass you have to switch to pass-through mode and back again, or take off the headset. You also can't do anything but look at the screen.

It isn't really something that people want to do.

Exceptions of course would be to do it with someone remotely, like a friend or a family member -- it is a good way to potentially 'hang out' with people who aren't physically there. But the same caveats apply.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#350

Post by jamiequint »

moomin wrote: post #271
dsign wrote: post #27

This is not Meta demanding to see some privilege information that exists in Simula's drawers, but rather commandeering the entire competing organization to do market research for Meta. It is clever and evil, and nothing anybody says after this will make me think that Meta is not anti-competitive nor that they have an once of ethics. As a consumer, I doubt I will ever again consider their VR products; I rather give my…

It’s definitely a heel move. I also fail to see how a small unprofitable firm (like most startups) is evidence of competition.

WhatsApp was a small unprofitable firm before they got bought for $18bn
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