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Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

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Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#131

Post by ramesh31 »

tossl568 wrote: post #96
jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold.

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/538/

At the end of the day, any power you think you may have is an illusion. It all comes down to who has the monopoly on violence.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#132

Post by ramesh31 »

fullsend wrote: post #127
jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

The libertarian leaning, free market lovers on HN won’t entertain your slander. The book Debt really opened my eyes to a flow of logic demonstrating that in fact markets cannot exist without states (laws) and vice versa. That this idea of pure markets corrupted by governments is a complete fantasy invented whole cloth and worshipped by sycophants for centuries. Markets require contracts, which require laws and enforc…

Hobbes layed this all out 300 years ago. But apparently “this time it’s different”.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#133

Post by smachiz »

tossl568 wrote: post #96
jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold.

Except that we have regulations for banks and brokerages for how they must operate, what sort of cash reserves they have, and how they must conduct audits. And they pay into an insurance program (FDIC/SIPC) to return money to depositors if they collapse.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#134

Post by karamanolev »

tossl568 wrote: post #96
jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold.

> You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian.

Many people have lost their BTC and other coins to hacks, phishes, hardware failures, software failures and so on. So in the sense of the people from the general public, yes, I can steal your Bitcoin.

> This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold.

You can keep it under the mattress and expose yourself to one kind of failure mode. You can also keep it with the bank with the clear expectation that the owners will not run off with the gold and also expect the state to go after the owners if they do. Which is not happening here.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#135

Post by smachiz »

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #123
tlb wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is. If someone steals your gold, you can call the people with guns to arrest them and get it back to you (often). It doesn't have to work 100% of the time to be an effective deterrent.

It's the same with coins. However fiat money must be protected by people with guns against forgery. With one exception: people in power are allowed to counterfeit it, thus robbing the common people, under protection of people with guns. Gold and Bitcoin are immune to both types of forgery.

Gold is not, and has never been, immune to forgery. Science has made it harder, but still happens all the time. See: gold plating, gold alloys, etc.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#136

Post by jqpabc123 »

woodruffw wrote: post #58
jqpabc123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the most amazing part --- it's not even a scam. He really didn't cash out anything that was legal tender --- what he cashed out was a bunch of play money. Technically, this isn't a crime because it wasn't "real" money.

"I convinced them to pay real money for fake money, stole the fake money, and exchanged it afterwards for real money" is not an argument that is likely to convince the SEC (or a jury).

not an argument that is likely to convince the SEC (or a jury).

Mainly because your argument is wrong all the way around.

Celsius never accepted any "real money" from anyone. Any "fake money" they allegedly "stole" came from their own account, not those of their customers.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#137

Post by qudat »

fullsend wrote: post #127
jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

The libertarian leaning, free market lovers on HN won’t entertain your slander. The book Debt really opened my eyes to a flow of logic demonstrating that in fact markets cannot exist without states (laws) and vice versa. That this idea of pure markets corrupted by governments is a complete fantasy invented whole cloth and worshipped by sycophants for centuries. Markets require contracts, which require laws and enforc…

You aren’t actually arguing again the core argument: contracts, laws, and enforcement don’t require governments. Just because this is the dominant system today doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the only way.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#138

Post by vkou »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #57
jqpabc123 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still fraud if you steal a painting Celsius didn't steal anything.

What do you call it when you abuse your insider role to close your own position in your failing investment fund, while hanging your customers out to dry?

> What do you call it when you abuse your insider role to close your own position in your failing investment fund, while hanging your customers out to dry?

Web3. Ask me a hard one next time.

Less-flippantly: Probably fraud, regardless of how many disclaimers your website has in 4pt font.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#140

Post by Yhippa »

jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

> When the USA starts issuing it's own crypto they might solve this problem by requiring KYC to get the coins, but then of course you loose the anonymity aspect.

In my mind the advantage for a US Government-backed crypto is the violence you mentioned above and convenience/traceability. The loss of anonymity I'm sure is a feature to them, not a bug.

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