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SAT score distributions in Michigan

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Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#361

Post by hotpotamus »

glerk wrote: post #324
hotpotamus wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this brought up a lot and it always makes me wonder - what is the "correct" number of black people who should be admitted to Harvard? Like if you removed any racial consideration, what would be the results?

The correct number of X group who should be admitted is the number of individuals in X group who meet the academic standard to be admitted. How about we stop giving those arbitrary buckets so much importance and treat everyone like individuals?

Yes, and I wonder what the racial composition of such a standard would be.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#362

Post by qsort »

bm3719 wrote: post #204
qsort wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should not, because race is a useless concept. There are traits individuals can have, some of which are immutable, and some of which correlate with what we call "race". But race itself is, even taking the most benign meaning possible, at best a surrogate. The sooner we get rid of that awful meme the better.

Isn't it true though that you can tell someone's race by their genome, skeletal structure, and other physical traits apart from skin color? Additionally, is it not also the case that race is generally agreed to result from geographic isolation, and that if that persisted long enough, speciation might occur? Not stating this is reality. I'm genuinely curious what the science is on this.

No, unless with "race" you mean something other than the ordinary meaning of the word. You can find those differences and draw lines between populations, but they don't overlap very well with the folk interpretation of race.

The traditional concept of race (i.e. the one where "white", "black", "asian" and so on are well-defined terms) is scientifically untenable (fact) and socially harmful (opinion).

There are some narrow use-cases where the concept can be fruitfully applied. For example, some diseases are correlated with genetic characteristics themselves correlated with race. If you are a physician making a diagnosis, the patient's race is usually very apparent; you can and should make use of that information. But that's just keeping the English friar happy, correlation does not imply causation.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#363

Post by mywittyname »

rayiner wrote: post #351
billsmithaustin wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter credits the test-taking techniques they taught in her SAT prep course for a big boost in her SAT score. She says the test-taking techniques were orthogonal to how well she knew the material. I'm happy for her but at the same time it seems unfair that my ability to afford the SAT prep course gave her an advantage not available to families with lower incomes.

If SAT prep was effective, then it would be an educational miracle, because a good SAT prep course is under $1,000. American schools spend 10 times that much money per student every year and barely move the needle.

Test prep is effective at getting you an accurate score.

One bit of knowledge improved my ACT score from 27 to a 33: internalizing how long I have for the tests. I was so used to being able to finish school tests with a comfortable amount of time remaining, so I took the test at a casual pace which means I didn't finish. The second time, I sprinted through the test as fast as possible and my score improved dramatically.

I doubt I could have done better with more coaching or prep.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#364

Post by yucky »

hackerlight wrote: post #301
yucky wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our immigration system is our biggest advantage? Are you sure it's not the thing(s) that makes people want to immigrate here that is our biggest advantage?

You can't separate those things. Immigrants create conditions (prosperity) that make people want to immigrate.

Is that a logical conclusion? Seems like other countries would do the same if it were that simple.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#365

Post by Der_Einzige »

mgfist wrote: post #64
davidn20 wrote: post #29

I think as a society we need to admit different race, in general, have different culture, values, and strengths. I don't even think that's a radical idea, but somehow it is. I have been watching this football competition youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrbljwLslYI The fun and athleticism you see is awe-inspiring, but I haven't seen a single Asian person competing or even at the event. My guess is a m…

It's not racial, it's cultural, socio-economic, and historical. Things like redlining, jim crow, GI Bill (lack-there-of for black people after WW2) all directly lead to the huge educational/economic inequality we see today. That said, it's clearly not racial based, because you can take a look at various non-American black populations and see big differences in educational levels and cultural values. For example, Nige…

"not racial".

Well, given that track and field is brutally dominated not just by black Africans/Caribbean Islanders, but that they tend to come from only a handful of ethnic groups, I tend to think that direct race has at least some influence.

Most body builders intuitively understand that being black is an advantage in building muscle.

But don't trust me, trust a study that also points this out: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26298766_Ethnicity-....

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#366

Post by rendang »

xeromal wrote: post #246
lexapro wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is clearly in Asia. So yes, by definition Indians are Asians.

So is europe. It's all the same continent. At least in the US, Indians aren't considered Asians.

They absolutely are for demographic purposes, even though the typical American will think of East Asians if you say something like "there's an Asian boy in my class"

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#367

Post by yucky »

daemoens wrote: post #299
yucky wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our immigration system is our biggest advantage? Are you sure it's not the thing(s) that makes people want to immigrate here that is our biggest advantage?

Anyone willing to leave their home country is almost always guaranteed to be a hard worker. It’s why immigrants are disproportionately successful compared to natives. Anyone who isn’t already a hard worker will not bother immigrating.

That doesn't explain why they choose the US in such large numbers though. If this is the best and the brightest they could go be just as successful anywhere else too. So why is the US such a magnet?

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#368

Post by s1artibartfast »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #134
dwater wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, assuming you are correct, what's the root cause of difference in time spent studying? If the primary cause is less study time spent by black and brown students, how do you address that?

Cultural values. Cultural values are more complex than genetic make up. Part of it comes from generations of values that lead to success of previous generations. An overlooked reason I believe there is such a statistical discrepancy of African Americans is that slavery effectively cut the cultural heritage of values from earlier generations of Africans. Slavery broke up families and with that erased generations of su…

If what you say is true, then the only solution is to build a better performing culture for African Americans.

While this is obviously a controversial position, the solution can take multiple forms. One can say that even reverse discrimination is an effort to form a different cultural norms in a younger generation by elevating their economic position

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#369

Post by thesid »

colinmhayes wrote: post #354
warner25 wrote: post #111

I think I'm mostly surprised to see how many of the "White" scores are so low, and so far behind "Asians," after years of hearing that the test is biased towards white / Anglo / native-English speakers raised in Western culture. I'm also reminded that I (like probably most people commenting on Hacker News) exist in a really small bubble in which everyone I closely associate with was in the top two bands (after going…

The test is biased toward people who study for it. Asian culture tends to demand more test prep so they do better.

calling this test biased is stupid. people who study hard score better. its the same with any test all over the world.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#370

Post by JamesianP »

billsmithaustin wrote: post #59
aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

My daughter credits the test-taking techniques they taught in her SAT prep course for a big boost in her SAT score. She says the test-taking techniques were orthogonal to how well she knew the material. I'm happy for her but at the same time it seems unfair that my ability to afford the SAT prep course gave her an advantage not available to families with lower incomes.

You can get the same improvement by reading a test prep book. You need to know the 3-4-5 triangle, this list of word definitions, a handful of other stuff. How much time you have. Now take a few practice tests, also freely or cheaply available anywhere. All of it should be a review of methods and skills you already have from school. That is the point of the test after all.

To me, those test prep places always seemed to be struggling with legitimacy. It's not like hiring a tutor to help you learn difficult concepts for the first time.

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