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Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

281–290 of 479 posts

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#281
Cloud desktops were fine a few years ago in Windows 7 times when the desktop was 2D and was remoted as GDI instructions.

Windows 10 made everything 3D, so now not having a GPU assigned to a virtual machine means everything is first rendered into a bitmap and then sent over wire as a movie. This causes additional delay, JPEG-like artifacts and instability.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 120ms should feel immediate. IIRC anything under 300ms feels instant.

That was a bad post. The figure of 300ms was from memory. I guess it's complex but for games shmup games ( https://www.pubnub.com/blog/how-fast-is-realtime-human-perce... ): " ...for Massive Multiplayer Online Gaming (MMOG), real-time is a requirement. As online gaming matures, players flock to games with more immersive and lifelike experiences. To satisfy this demand, developers now need to produce games with very r…

Just a heads up for others trying to read this, I think the are backwards.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#283

With cloud gaming you can stream 4K games at 60FPS, with clarity and quality for fast moving objects. Why does remote desktop still shit itself when I move around MS Word with a few pictures? I know a tier 1 financial company that offer 100k / year developers a slow VM and from there you have to log into another VM. The VMs are dual core, 8GB. I watch in horror as each keypress takes more than a second. The amount of…

Those companies don't have GPU acceleration in Windows 10.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#284
I've been using this in one form or another for a very long time. Starting when we had Windows desktops with bad Linux support, and back then you couldn't run both OS's on the same machine at the same time.

So I stuck a workstation with Linux on it in a closet. Fired up VNC and I could hit it from home, my cubicle, the road, wherever. It's evolved over the years as things became faster and more secure. It became a co-located server, then a VPS, and now it's a shared setup on a beefy server.

It maintains it's state no matter where I go. I can open up two ore more sessions for two ore more monitors. But it's more useful to just surf the web or open PDF's or whatever on the local machine. Copy and paste is pretty seamless these days. And wherever it's located, has a much better network connection than I do.

You still have a latency problem with large files (CD .iso in the old days, a 10GB package these days). I don't play games so I don't really know how that goes. But for development it works great, as well as just a general workstation.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#286

I would have agreed until I started working at Google. Also, you should completely avoid having Remote Desktop and instead use ssh + an editor that works with remote files. At Google we have a custom fork of VSCode running in browser and builds can either be distributed or run on my Linux VM to utilize build cache. I liked it so much I started doing a similar setup for small side projects. Just boot up the Cloud Cons…

> Accessible from anywhere (I use my pc, my laptop, etc. The env is always the same) This is a feature in search of a problem for me. I never wake up in the morning and go “Gee only if I can code on random computers”. It sounds super nice but then I think about it a little more and it’s just fluff.

I have a website with a worker process doing RSS parsing that occasionally fails. It would be quite nice to be able to spend 10 minutes fixing trivial bugs from my phone while I'm out and about. Or from my iPad. I'm not doing feature development but this would be nice to have for things that are so easy I could do them now but instead must wait hours or days until I'm back in front of my dev machine.

And actually I have a desktop and a laptop that I do dev work on. More than once I've started a branch on the desktop one night but don't quite get far enough to push it up and the next day I take my laptop to the coffee shop and realize the code is still at home.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#287
post #278

All these dev-machines-in-a-cloud sound wonderful from a security, compliance, and onboarding perspective. What is often forgotten is that this is now a service you’re operating and a massive SPOF. If it goes down (and it will), productivity drops to exactly zero. It’s like sending your devs home until it’s fixed.

Not that much different than a power failure at the office, or your uplink going down. Both more frequent, in my experience, than cloud zonal outages.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#288
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general but I do blame Citrix for some foot-guns. The Citrix admins at my employer have never figured out how to configure it to get keyboard latency below ~120ms (on a gigabit LAN), and the silly health meter always reports the connection as excellent. This is mostly on them - in classic enterprise IT thinking, if it’s not down your job is done - but I’m somewhat disappointed that it’s even possible to co…

A 120ms should feel immediate. IIRC anything under 300ms feels instant.

That’s off by about an order of magnitude – highly skilled humans can see and react in less than 120ms. One thing which can complicate discussion on this is that there are different closely related things: how quickly you can see, understand, and react is slower than just seeing which is slower than seeing a change in an ongoing trend (that’s why you notice stutter more than isolated motion), and there are differences based on the type of change (we see motion, contrast, orientation, and color at different latencies due to how signals are processed starting in the cortex and progressing through V1, V2, V3, V4, etc.) how focused you are on the action (e.g. watching to see a bird move is different than seeing the effect of something you’re directly controlling). Audio is generally lower latency than visual, too.

All of this means that the old figures are not useful as a rule of thumb unless your task is exactly what they studied. This paper notes how unhelpful that is with ranges from 2-100ms! They found thresholds around 25ms for some tasks but as low as 6ms for some tasks.

https://www.tactuallabs.com/papers/howMuchFasterIsFastEnough...

Keyboard latency is one of the harder ends of this spectrum: the users are focused, expecting a strong (high contrast, new signal) change in direct response to their action, and everything is highly trained to the point of being reflex.

When I’m typing text, I’m not waiting for the change to hit a key outside of games but rather expecting things like text to appear as expected or a cursor to move. Awhile back I tested this and the latency difference between VSC’s ~15ms key-to-character was noticeably smoother compared to 80+ms (Atom, Sublime) and the Citrix system I tested at 120-150ms (Notepad is like 15ms normally) was enough slower that it forced a different way of thinking about it (for me, that was “like a BBS” because I grew up in the 80s).

n.b. I’m not an expert in this but worked in a neuroscience lab for years supporting researchers who studied the visual system (including this specific issue) so I’m very confident that the overall message is “it’s complicated” even if I’m misremembering some of the details.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Accessible from anywhere (I use my pc, my laptop, etc. The env is always the same) This is a feature in search of a problem for me. I never wake up in the morning and go “Gee only if I can code on random computers”. It sounds super nice but then I think about it a little more and it’s just fluff.

I have a website with a worker process doing RSS parsing that occasionally fails. It would be quite nice to be able to spend 10 minutes fixing trivial bugs from my phone while I'm out and about. Or from my iPad. I'm not doing feature development but this would be nice to have for things that are so easy I could do them now but instead must wait hours or days until I'm back in front of my dev machine. And actually I h…

I think this is it. As soon as you go from working on one computer to 2 you do have this problem.

I myself work on 2 laptops and a desktop all running different OS.

Re: Cloud desktops aren't as good as you'd think

#290

I would have agreed until I started working at Google. Also, you should completely avoid having Remote Desktop and instead use ssh + an editor that works with remote files. At Google we have a custom fork of VSCode running in browser and builds can either be distributed or run on my Linux VM to utilize build cache. I liked it so much I started doing a similar setup for small side projects. Just boot up the Cloud Cons…

There is one more point I would like to add to the "less friction to start." This is the killer feature for education.

No more do students have to set up their own envs. Figure out PYTHONPATH. No more do educators need to debug installation issues on 3 different OSes.

Teachers distribute a pre setup env which they know works for what they are trying to teach. Students go straight into writing code and building things with minimum friction.

Learning to set up your env can be punted to a problem for later.

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