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SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

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Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#161

Post by josaka »

Roark66 wrote: post #70

If this is actually how US's justice system works it is even more bonkers than I thought. Could someone versed in this legal system explain, please? Is is any accused that can demand documents/data/free research from vaguely related third parties, or only large companies? Enquiring minds want to know!

Yes, but in practice, this is just an opening offer in a negotiation. Parties will typically counter with something like: depose me in my home town for no more than x hours, and I'll produce what docs I have if you sign a protective order that makes produced info attorney's-eyes-only, i.e., business people cannot review. Unlikely a court would require more than this.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#162

Post by benreesman »

Kiro wrote: post #160
benreesman wrote: post #133

Maybe I've just been on a too-long coding stretch, but speaking for myself, it's just really unsavory to read so much "red/blue"-style sloganism around the big tech companies. Obviously I'm biased because I worked for one, and so I saw up close the process that produces the decisions that seem to routinely generate comment threads with people comparing Google/FB/MSFT/etc. to e.g. "Satan". It's just not that simple fo…

I think you're giving HN too much credit. Threads involving certain topics (e.g. big tech) are completely overrun with snark and hate that I don't see much of the relentless curiosity you're talking about.

I know what you're talking about in only the way that someone who too often has been part of the problem can :)

But this forum is coming up on two decades and has like one or two full-time moderators and somehow remains an island of rational discourse in an Internet full of "I'm trained in gorilla warfare".

It has it's good days and it's bad days, (just as I do as a participant) but I think it's pretty unique.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#163

Post by duxup »

Kiro wrote: post #160
benreesman wrote: post #133

Maybe I've just been on a too-long coding stretch, but speaking for myself, it's just really unsavory to read so much "red/blue"-style sloganism around the big tech companies. Obviously I'm biased because I worked for one, and so I saw up close the process that produces the decisions that seem to routinely generate comment threads with people comparing Google/FB/MSFT/etc. to e.g. "Satan". It's just not that simple fo…

I think you're giving HN too much credit. Threads involving certain topics (e.g. big tech) are completely overrun with snark and hate that I don't see much of the relentless curiosity you're talking about.

Agreed, it has become more and more frequent that HN threads are overrun by comments that seem more like they're straight out of reddit or even just your local newspaper comment section. With all the snark or aggressive dismissive pessimism they involve.

It's really sad to see because I love the HN comment section for how easily you can say a thing and everyone understands there's nuance and lots of angles to address the topic.

I've made posts about an app and the author appears curious about the issue (I'm not asking for support, just fun that folks are curious). Other people who understand the complexity (or just that there is complexity) involved are around to explore the issue / ask great questions.

Where other places the response would be the typical cynical "Oh that's just because they want you to upgrade!" and so on.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#164

Post by tiahura »

HillRat wrote: post #137
Ajedi32 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eyeroll . Meta did nothing wrong here. This isn't them going after their competition; they're the defendant in this lawsuit. As the article says: > In fairness to Meta: the FTC is the one who initiated this fight, leaving them with the burden of demonstrating it isn't behaving "anti-competitively". So naturally, one of the primary (only?) things Meta can do to demonstrate this is to subpoena...well...its competition.…

Facebook is very much the aggressor -- in response to the FTC suit, their immediate response was to try and use the courts to strong-arm hundreds of competitors into giving up massive troves of highly sensitive commercial secrets without any kind of formal protection, such as limiting document review to FB's outside counsel. It's ridiculous, it's abusive, it's overbroad, and it's transparently an effort to burden Fac…

That's not how litigation works. If SimulaVR wants protection, it has to ask for it. SimulaVR has the right to ask 1) Meta and 2) the court to limit the scope of the subpoena and to set conditions on the review and distribution of the production. If Meta agrees to the conditions, great, the agreement can either be informal, or incorporated into an order for the judge to sign. If Meta is opposed, SimulaVR gets to make their case to the judge and let him decide scope and protective order details.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#165

Post by benreesman »

duxup wrote: post #163
Kiro wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving HN too much credit. Threads involving certain topics (e.g. big tech) are completely overrun with snark and hate that I don't see much of the relentless curiosity you're talking about.

Agreed, it has become more and more frequent that HN threads are overrun by comments that seem more like they're straight out of reddit or even just your local newspaper comment section. With all the snark or aggressive dismissive pessimism they involve. It's really sad to see because I love the HN comment section for how easily you can say a thing and everyone understands there's nuance and lots of angles to address…

In fairness: if you talk shit on Rust here you're in for a stomping, but if you praise Rust on `/r/programming` you're in for the same stomping by a different crowd ;)

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#166

Post by sudosysgen »

benreesman wrote: post #157
georgewsinger wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, and just want to reiterate what was written in the article: we genuinely feel no animosity towards Meta and its gaming headsets. We don't even feel animosity that they have leveraged their economies of scale to provide them very cheaply to consumers (something we aren't able to do yet[1]). We just disagree with their product vision, and are pursuing our own. We also think subpoenaing us for this case seems u…

I suspect that with all such things, that a hacker's opinion on the relevant law is probably `/r/ConfidentlyIncorrect`. I have no opinion on the substantial legal matters at question. It's been my observation that the ranking folks at Meta in the VR world are as ethical as fiduciary obligation permits, but YMMV. I thank you for your reply and hope that you agree that a substantial legal matter which will inevitably b…

Wether it's reasonable or not is orthogonal to the law. It's not because something is legal that it should be a thing. I think that whether or not this is legal, the idea Meta can access internal documentation from a smaller competitor is unreasonable.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#167

Post by danra »

benreesman wrote: post #133

Maybe I've just been on a too-long coding stretch, but speaking for myself, it's just really unsavory to read so much "red/blue"-style sloganism around the big tech companies. Obviously I'm biased because I worked for one, and so I saw up close the process that produces the decisions that seem to routinely generate comment threads with people comparing Google/FB/MSFT/etc. to e.g. "Satan". It's just not that simple fo…

> corporate funding of all the open-source projects that wouldn't exist without the megacorps

This is a fallacy: It's possible comparable open source contributions could have been made without the graces of the corporates.

For example: The giants tend to buy out their competition early, so how could it mature enough to be able to contribute comparably, or possibly better, to open source?

IMHO the open source contributions of these companies are a form of tech-washing, regardless of the honest and best intentions of their employees.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#168

Post by mlyle »

onepointsixC wrote: post #122
dsign wrote: post #27

This is not Meta demanding to see some privilege information that exists in Simula's drawers, but rather commandeering the entire competing organization to do market research for Meta. It is clever and evil, and nothing anybody says after this will make me think that Meta is not anti-competitive nor that they have an once of ethics. As a consumer, I doubt I will ever again consider their VR products; I rather give my…

This seems like a wildly emotional response that is completely out of line with what is being asked. The FTC is suing Meta, and it has a right to get other companies to admit that they are in fact competitors to Meta in the VR Space. SimulaVR is being pretty bad faith in claiming that: "Meta sells reasonably good gaming headsets to customers who want to be entertained in VR; we're selling general-purpose productivity…

> SimulaVR is being pretty bad faith in claiming that:...

> Meta pretty clearly intends to compete not just in the gaming VR space but to have general purpose and professional use VR Headsets. Likely all that will come from this is a few internal graphs which include Meta as a competitor in the space.

Part of the antitrust action is determining the boundaries of the market.

If company A has a monopoly in market X, and company B competes in related market Y, ... the fact that company A intends to enter market Y does not mean company B is preventing company A from having a monopoly in market X. (But if X and Y are the same market, they are!)

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#169

Post by Bloedcoin »

sbarre wrote: post #76
Bloedcoin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Google still provides android, Google maps, Gmail for free. World changing at it's time still helping people around the globe. Their research blog is fantastic and shows what they value. Google Io focus on people and security and trust. Google is much further away from evil than plenty of other companies. Did they kill stadia? Yes. Did actually anyone care? No. Because stadia didn't matter anyway.

If you think Google's biggest sin is killing Stadia, you stopped paying attention over a decade ago.

I'm following well enough.

Have you checked the last Google Io?

They don't hide that they collect data.

Android is still open.

You can't expect Google to just give you a android distribution without their stuff for free just because.

You still can use it.

Re: SimulaVR Has Been Subpoenaed by Meta Platforms, Inc

#170

Post by benreesman »

danra wrote: post #167
benreesman wrote: post #133

Maybe I've just been on a too-long coding stretch, but speaking for myself, it's just really unsavory to read so much "red/blue"-style sloganism around the big tech companies. Obviously I'm biased because I worked for one, and so I saw up close the process that produces the decisions that seem to routinely generate comment threads with people comparing Google/FB/MSFT/etc. to e.g. "Satan". It's just not that simple fo…

> corporate funding of all the open-source projects that wouldn't exist without the megacorps This is a fallacy: It's possible comparable open source contributions could have been made without the graces of the corporates. For example: The giants tend to buy out their competition early, so how could it mature enough to be able to contribute comparably, or possibly better, to open source? IMHO the open source contribu…

There really isn't any way to confirm or refute that kind of argument. What would happen if regulation or social norms or whatever prevented big tech companies from existing? I don't know and (frankly) you don't either.

I use emacs a dozen plus hours a day, and GNU wouldn't exist if RMS hadn't been bullied at the lunch room in the MIT AI Lab. Would the world be a better or worse place if he didn't have a personal jihad against Symbolics draped in a GNU bumper sticker?

I don't know.

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