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SAT score distributions in Michigan

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Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#131

Post by bloaf »

chewbacha wrote: post #26

I have another spin on it. Of those demographics, asians tend to be very recent migrants ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/09/asian-ameri... ) and migrants tend to be very hard-working within the first generation of migration ( https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/07/12/ten-way... ). Some of this could be selection bias (those who choose to move are those who are motivated to seek a better lif…

> Seems like it could be within a margin of error (3 v 5%).

There is no margin of error when your sample is the entire population.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#132

Post by hackerlight »

lexapro wrote: post #109
hackerlight wrote: post #13

Male variability hypothesis confirmed once again.

The question is whether it's biological (I doubt it) or cultural.

It's probably biological.

A sizeable majority of our ancestors are women. Only a few men get to have kids. This creates a selective pressure for males to have higher variance traits. If it's winner take all, higher variance strategies pay off better.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#133

Post by eej71 »

lexapro wrote: post #109
hackerlight wrote: post #13

Male variability hypothesis confirmed once again.

The question is whether it's biological (I doubt it) or cultural.

I believe the evidence that's used in support of the biological viewpoint is that we see similar distributions patterns in other species - aka - sexual dimorphism.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#134

Post by fasteddie31003 »

dwater wrote: post #92
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #35

"Omitted variable bias" is what is going on here and is a statistical term that everyone needs to understand because it is causing so many race issues in America. The feature that is missing in this simplistic model of intelligence is cultural values. I am definitely not a racist but I am a "culturalist". Some people have a set of personal values (culture) that express themselves as doing better or worse in standardi…

OK, assuming you are correct, what's the root cause of difference in time spent studying? If the primary cause is less study time spent by black and brown students, how do you address that?

Cultural values. Cultural values are more complex than genetic make up. Part of it comes from generations of values that lead to success of previous generations. An overlooked reason I believe there is such a statistical discrepancy of African Americans is that slavery effectively cut the cultural heritage of values from earlier generations of Africans. Slavery broke up families and with that erased generations of successful values that were passed down.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#135

Post by xattt »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #94
wjnc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a quick note on the word 'push'. We all now the 'tiger parenting' trope. Those parents exists and it makes a difference (with clear 'pushing', which I see as a negative). But with maths I think it's a bit more subtle. Just the tiny things (even just 'talk' math) you do in early education can make a massive return later. There is no 'mean' in maths education even in ages 4-10 (my kids). We live in the Netherlands…

maybe pushing is the wrong word but i would say parents who care about their child's education have children who score substantially higher than children who don't have parents who care. And "caring" is highly related to family stability and the education level of one or both parents. Where education level manifests itself is in how a parent cares. My uneducated mom (who is asian) asked us to study and get good grade…

I see that there is a finite bucket of cognitive energy. Learning higher-order concepts, as well as dealing with unstable family dynamics takes away from this bucket.

If you’re scraping the bottom to deal with family (or mental health in the parents, restricted finances, less-than-ideal living conditions, etc.), then your capacity to integrate abstract concepts becomes fairly limited.

These issues often feed into each other, and it becomes difficult to break out of this cycle, leading to trans-generational opportunity loss.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#137

Post by davidn20 »

mgfist wrote: post #64
davidn20 wrote: post #29

I think as a society we need to admit different race, in general, have different culture, values, and strengths. I don't even think that's a radical idea, but somehow it is. I have been watching this football competition youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrbljwLslYI The fun and athleticism you see is awe-inspiring, but I haven't seen a single Asian person competing or even at the event. My guess is a m…

It's not racial, it's cultural, socio-economic, and historical. Things like redlining, jim crow, GI Bill (lack-there-of for black people after WW2) all directly lead to the huge educational/economic inequality we see today. That said, it's clearly not racial based, because you can take a look at various non-American black populations and see big differences in educational levels and cultural values. For example, Nige…

It is racial in the sense that's the way people have been grouping things. Else we wouldn't even have this conversation. There would be no inequality of races because the grouping wouldn't exist in the first place.

I hesitate, to think obstacles are the reason why things are the way they are. Again, going back to sports. Black people faced all the same obstacles in the sport arena and still came out on top. Also, Asian people also faced discrimination too. Don't forget concentration camps.

And yes, all those other things you mention cultural, socio-economic, and historical are true too. Even within the Asian "grouping" there are groups that don't live up to the "stereotypical" standard of success. John Oliver talked about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29lXsOYBaow

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#138

Post by socialismisok »

adamsmith143 wrote: post #73
socialismisok wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hardly simple to prep for the SAT. It requires time and money and space.

So you'd rather use a holistic process where kids with rich parents can go off to Africa and start a volunteer school or fly across the country participating in Sailing competitions? One process has a more level playing field, the other is clearly rigged in favor of rich well connected kids.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort.

I'd prefer we provided the food, housing, education, and healthcare that would enable anyone to succeed on the SAT by eroding the worst disadvantages some kids face.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#139

Post by tssva »

flatline wrote: post #44
timmg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The challenge for large and heterogeneously diverse nations like the U.S. is to offer an educational system that provides access to quality education regardless of parental involvement. But don’t your stats show that we already do? We “provide access” to everyone. Otherwise it wouldn’t matter how much the parents pushed the children. If your argument is that the system should push the children harder, how do you pr…

We don’t provide free access to test prep. We don’t provide equal access to parents and friends who are enthusiastic and pushed to do well on these tests. We don’t provide equal access to a culture that values academics over, say, sports and entertainment.

Free SAT preparation is available through a partnership between the College Board and the Khan academy. https://www.khanacademy.org/SAT

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#140

Post by timmg »

flatline wrote: post #44
timmg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The challenge for large and heterogeneously diverse nations like the U.S. is to offer an educational system that provides access to quality education regardless of parental involvement. But don’t your stats show that we already do? We “provide access” to everyone. Otherwise it wouldn’t matter how much the parents pushed the children. If your argument is that the system should push the children harder, how do you pr…

We don’t provide free access to test prep. We don’t provide equal access to parents and friends who are enthusiastic and pushed to do well on these tests. We don’t provide equal access to a culture that values academics over, say, sports and entertainment.

> We don’t provide equal access to parents and friends who are enthusiastic and pushed to do well on these tests. We don’t provide equal access to a culture that values academics over, say, sports and entertainment.

Who is “we” in this case?

Are we talking about government solutions here, or something else?

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