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SAT score distributions in Michigan

infoproc.blogspot.com

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Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#71

Post by digdugdirk »

The race distributions are interesting, sure. But the full report has some better data points for drawing conclusions. Of particular interest to me was the income/parental education differential (obvious increases, but interesting to see by how much) but especially a category for results by when the test was taken - weekend vs in-school. Students who took the test on a weekend were nearly 300pts higher, and the "met requirements" percentage nearly doubled.

It would be particularly interesting to see this parsed out by the same economic and education related parameters in order to see how much an effect just having a smaller quieter "separate" test environment helps a student's score.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#73

Post by adamsmith143 »

socialismisok wrote: post #48
throwaway6734 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SATs also allow for children with non parental involvement but talent to excel because it's a simple process: take a test

It's hardly simple to prep for the SAT. It requires time and money and space.

So you'd rather use a holistic process where kids with rich parents can go off to Africa and start a volunteer school or fly across the country participating in Sailing competitions?

One process has a more level playing field, the other is clearly rigged in favor of rich well connected kids.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#74

Post by FredPret »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #41
aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

The SATs also allow for children with non parental involvement but talent to excel because it's a simple process: take a test

Exactly. You can’t hide a high IQ, even though parental and societal involvement will always act as a multiplier on what a kid can naturally do.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#75

Post by sokoloff »

socialismisok wrote: post #46
timmg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The challenge for large and heterogeneously diverse nations like the U.S. is to offer an educational system that provides access to quality education regardless of parental involvement. But don’t your stats show that we already do? We “provide access” to everyone. Otherwise it wouldn’t matter how much the parents pushed the children. If your argument is that the system should push the children harder, how do you pr…

We don't provide access to everyone. If you are a kid who doesn't get fed at home, and you don't get a school meal until lunch, do you have the same access? If your school can't afford state of the art computers or technology, do you have the same access? If your school has class sizes of 35 and mine has class sizes of 18, do we both have the same access?

The financial solution chosen to drive equality is likely to be "you must fire half of your teachers, resulting in class sizes of 36 for you, which we think is close enough to 35".

Does that actually help anyone?

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#76

Post by lupire »

aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

SAT math is geometry,a 10th grade class for average students. Scoring below 700 isn't due to lack of "push" it's lack of some combination of intelligence, nurture, health, teaching.

Due to the cost and complexity of transcontinental migration, most Asians in US now, and Jews last generation, come from elites from their previous family homeland who successfully migrated to escape bad government or seeking greater opportunity, when it was tactically hard to do so for the average person. It's a natural filter for smart, capable, effective people who can raise children to be same.

The effect tends to fade over time (shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves, or docks to docks, in three generations). Now that Jewish immigration has mostly ended, their great-grandchildren (and the descendants of previous generations of Asian immigrants) are, as a cohort, not performing academically as well as today's Asian immigrant children and chidren of immigrants.

The math contest winners and teams, deep into the bench, are nearly all children of immigrants (and Polgar-esque homeschoolers who get to avoid time-wasting distractions of school)

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#77

Post by dilap »

aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

It's kind of the opposite. I was a highschool dropout, highest level of math was basic algebra. I was able to change my mind about the whole education thing by buying a "prepare yourself for the SAT" book, studying it for a couple of months, doing well, and getting admitted to college. Ended up doing a math + physics dual major.

(I'm really grateful that that avenue to college existed -- I could not have written an admissions essay, done extracurricular activities, or generally been a "good boy" if my life depened on it.)

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#78

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

fleetwoodsnack wrote: post #36
fullshark wrote: post #2

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distribution...

That stood out to me too. For all the self-appointed power that higher education institutions have given themselves to balance the proverbial scales of justice, I wonder if they ever take the time to consider the moral hazards of their decision making. Will the presidents, chancellors, board of governors, or deans of these institutions ever have to compete for these seats? Obviously no, and their own children will li…

It is actually a fascinating study and I wonder why the results were not studied closer. If anything, the approach that it seemingly disadvantaged asian applicants and benefited black applicants had the opposite effect due to cultural norms, which only forced asian parents to, apparently, force their kids to study even harder.

Full disclosure. I am mostly done with affirmative action. Standardized testing all the way. It is not perfect, but its better than 'whose ancestors suffered the most recently'. Otherwise we will continue to see a steady degradation akin to students voting a chemistry out for tough grades ( recent news that is making rounds on social media ).

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#80

Post by dpatterbee »

commandlinefan wrote: post #43
timmg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The challenge for large and heterogeneously diverse nations like the U.S. is to offer an educational system that provides access to quality education regardless of parental involvement. But don’t your stats show that we already do? We “provide access” to everyone. Otherwise it wouldn’t matter how much the parents pushed the children. If your argument is that the system should push the children harder, how do you pr…

> how do you propose that All the proposals I've ever seen have been to handicap the students whose parents try to give them an advantage. It's a popular sentiment, growing in popularity every day.

This response smells strongly of FUD. Could you possibly elaborate?
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