SAT score distributions in Michigan • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#21

Post by alex_sf » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

jonahbenton wrote: post #14

hker999 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Harvard university president has stated many times that admissions are weighted and if you are Asian, will have a much harder time getting accepted. It seems racism is accepted in academia, when it affects a demographic you deem 'problematic'

As a NYC public school parent now with kids in college, who sees mono-white, mono-asian and mono-black school cultures (all 3 of which NYC unfortunately has lots of) as abhorrent, there is nothing wrong with not wanting a mono-culture in a community. (Go ahead. Downvote. It does wonders to change my mind lol).

Sure, it's not ideal. Is the solution to have different standards for different groups based solely on skin color or self-identification?

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#22

Post by socialismisok » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

athew wrote: post #18

I find it very surprising that the term "Asian" lives in this twilight zone where nobody is sure if it includes India, the second largest country in the region. For the SAT distribution tables, the term Asian includes Indians I assume, while the following table from the German professor does not break out India. smh.

The categories come from the US government, I believe. The same reason why the data doesn't include non binary genders, for instance.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#23

Post by arolihas » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

jonahbenton wrote: post #14

hker999 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Harvard university president has stated many times that admissions are weighted and if you are Asian, will have a much harder time getting accepted. It seems racism is accepted in academia, when it affects a demographic you deem 'problematic'

As a NYC public school parent now with kids in college, who sees mono-white, mono-asian and mono-black school cultures (all 3 of which NYC unfortunately has lots of) as abhorrent, there is nothing wrong with not wanting a mono-culture in a community. (Go ahead. Downvote. It does wonders to change my mind lol).

Why is that abhorrent to you?

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#24

Post by user2352 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

armchairhacker wrote: post #15

fullshark wrote: post #2

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distribution...

The kid got accepted to UMass Amherst and Northeastern University. Those colleges are really highly-rated for CS, and Northeastern in particular has recently become really selective. The college rejections are weird, yes, but I don’t feel bad for him

With life experience and age, you really appreciate the opportunities like UMass Amherst and Northeastern for CS. But if you're a high school senior, it's really common that you don't really realize that in the moment, and feel hugely demotivated or even end up depressed at the start of university.

A lot of these people spend hours a week studying for the SATs and courses with the dream and imagination of getting into an Ivy League. You could say it's a misplaced effort, that these kids should lower expectations, and that these people should be happy with the opportunities they have, and there's merit.

But in the moment, it's a huge blow to feel like hard work just won't pay off, and it certainly caused depression among a few people I knew. This can be mitigated by good mentorship and parenting, but not all people end up with good mentors, and parents who didn't experience the process might not understand it either.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#25

Post by zwkrt » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

socialismisok wrote: post #17

aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

Not only that, where one lives can impact the funding available to even provide basic education. We are too comfortable letting poor areas have underfunded schools.

Funding schools based on local property tax was institutionalized as a way to ensure rich people don’t have to pay for poor people’s education.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#26

Post by chewbacha » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

I have another spin on it. Of those demographics, asians tend to be very recent migrants (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/09/asian-ameri...) and migrants tend to be very hard-working within the first generation of migration (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/07/12/ten-way...). Some of this could be selection bias (those who choose to move are those who are motivated to seek a better life).

I did get a little confused from how we went from Asians doing well in Michigan means the PRC is going to dominate the engineering sector. There seems to be an implication that these are connected. Its my understanding that these demographic data would represent South, SE, and East Asia as part of the same demographic.

Also, his top observation: > In the top band there are many more males than females.

Seems like it could be within a margin of error (3 v 5%). Also, there are more males in the bottom band than females (18 vs 14%). This seems spurious at best.

> 2. The Asian kids are hitting the ceiling on this test. > 3. There are very few students from under-represented groups who score in the top band.

I also suspect that taking his next two observations together imply that he might have a bias against out-groups and in favor of his own in-group. Especially considering much of the topics in the comments section focus on the upcoming SCOTUS trial over affirmative action.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#27

Post by abduhl » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

>> The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically.

What is the equitable solution to this then? You seem to be implying that SAT score differences are not inequitable but we know from recent research this is not true.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#28

Post by socialismisok » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

alex_sf wrote: post #21

jonahbenton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a NYC public school parent now with kids in college, who sees mono-white, mono-asian and mono-black school cultures (all 3 of which NYC unfortunately has lots of) as abhorrent, there is nothing wrong with not wanting a mono-culture in a community. (Go ahead. Downvote. It does wonders to change my mind lol).

Sure, it's not ideal. Is the solution to have different standards for different groups based solely on skin color or self-identification?

It reasonably could be, if you are trying to undo systemic disadvantages that different groups have.

You have to make a conscious choice to accept some adjustments higher if the foundation is systematically unfair. It might feel unfair to the folks who benefit from systematic advantages early.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#29

Post by davidn20 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

I think as a society we need to admit different race, in general, have different culture, values, and strengths. I don't even think that's a radical idea, but somehow it is. I have been watching this football competition youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrbljwLslYI

The fun and athleticism you see is awe-inspiring, but I haven't seen a single Asian person competing or even at the event. My guess is a math competition would look a lot different.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#30

Post by adamsmith143 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

fullshark wrote: post #2

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distribution...

Kind of useless in isolation. Who knows how competitive the CS classes are at the places they were rejected. I mean CS is probably the most competitive of any Major currently and they were rejected from arguably the top undergrad programs in the world. Out of state students are also at a disadvantage so that didn't help their case. Also seemed to lack any CS related extra curriculars, when they're applying against kids who won IOC's or have been building software since they were 12. Probably would have done fine applying to USC, Duke, JHU and other elite privates or in any other major.