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Pessimism is a barrier to progress

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Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#181

Post by MomoXenosaga »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #107
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal carbon budget. But then the upper middle class twats couldn't go on vacation to Bali and we can't have that no sirree!

Are they twats because they're upper middle class, or because they want to go on vacation to Bali? Or maybe both? Edit: the point that I'm driving at (if it wasn't clear) is that we seem to all want upward mobility to be a thing, but boy do we hate those that actually experience it. That seems almost like it's own kind of pessimism to me.

You don't have to go on holiday across the world.

But for the record I don't give a shit just don't preach environmentalism. Hypocrisy is just one of those things that crawls up my butt.

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#182

Post by antman »

hbarka wrote: post #140
pfdietz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pessimism can be quite useful. In particular, it helps prune off unhelpful branches of search trees, so you can focus on more promising ones. A very important part of solving problems is choosing the right problems. It doesn't help to be optimistic about something that's not going to work.

>It doesn't help to be optimistic about something that's not going to work. Thinking a priori that it’s not going to work, here we have the true definition of a pessimist.

Or a realist

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#183

Post by BurningFrog »

id wrote: post #98
BurningFrog wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you or I, or even Gates do in our personal lives has absolutely no effect on climate change. Solutions or failures happen in other contexts. Gates does some real work in those. The whole "I must recycle all my plastic bags or the planet will die" mentality is, to me, a weird form of delusion of grandeur. Seeing past that can be both freeing and depressing :)

It can be freeing to lie to yourself, but it remains a lie. Of course limiting personal pollution has an effect.

I think we can have disagreements without calling each other liars.

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#184

Post by id »

BurningFrog wrote: post #183
id wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be freeing to lie to yourself, but it remains a lie. Of course limiting personal pollution has an effect.

I think we can have disagreements without calling each other liars.

It's not a disagreement. You made a false statement, I called it out.

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#186

Post by sitkack »

worldsayshi wrote: post #180
sitkack wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am very frustrated by how leftism seems so often be so centred on critique (a negative trait) rather than building ideas/stuff. You realize that this is rhetorical scam to prevent the questioning of action and the suppression of dissent? The left has plenty of good ideas on how to constructively corral the greed and stupidity of the right. And no unions are not out of fashion.

I want to make something that tries to solve the problem. I want to be part of a movement of creators that create the solution. I don't want to discourage protest but I don't really believe in it as a method for solving the big problems we are having. There are times for protest but protests aren't providing a solution that people believe or care about. That solution needs to be created first. (To be clear: I'm not t…

Protest needs to be the very beginning, not the end. Someone being grumpy or complaining on sosh meeds is not protesting, they are fueling the machine.

> Social media eat modernist ideologies

I agree, but I believe that is the intended effect.

Social media is a void that people scream into. Unless your organizing on social media has any direct action in the physical world, it is functioning as intended.

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#187

Post by togs »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #19

> There's an "optimism stigma" that's pervasive throughout society. Funny, I'd say it's quite the opposite, you aren't allowed to say anything negative or you'd be labeled as a "downer". Everything nowadays is "amazing" and "transformative".

On the one hand, it’s easy to wallow in nihilism. On the other hand, many who employ an optimistic tone are selling something that probably won’t help

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#188

Post by jollybean »

foldr wrote: post #24
jollybean wrote: post #14

Just the opposite, I see empathetic, gushing, ridiculous cotton candy optimisim all over places like LinkedIn and the corporate world. Everybody Smile! There isn't nearly enough contention, questioning, satire (notice how SNL never really goes for that) etc.. Marc Benioff spends the entirety of his time virtue signalling about how he is saving LGBT refugees from this or that, while superficially that's nice, it's ult…

>Marc Benioff spends the entirety of his time virtue signalling about how he is saving LGBT refugees from this or that, while superficially that's nice, it's ultra narcissistic PR and self aggrandization to use those people as tools for corporate branding. Nobody calls him out. I don't think this sort of cynicism about LGBT rights activism is helpful. If we want to make progress in this area, we need support from all…

Virtue Signalling is absolutely a thing.

Hollow and performative support for an issues that services only to engender the supporter with social points.

Supporting Ukraine doesn't bring anyone brownie points because it's not so much a moral position.

Corporations 'supporting' BLM, especially with donations, which is a totally corrupt charity - this is a problem. Corporations even throwing up the word 'equity' is a bit of a start, but not really there. Corporations making money off of it (Nike) is evil. Corporations doing something thoughtful and material about it, now that's not 'virtue signalling'. If they want to humble-brag about it in some non aggrandising way, then that's fine but it should not be part of company branding.

Re: Pessimism is a barrier to progress

#189

Post by foldr »

jollybean wrote: post #188
foldr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Marc Benioff spends the entirety of his time virtue signalling about how he is saving LGBT refugees from this or that, while superficially that's nice, it's ultra narcissistic PR and self aggrandization to use those people as tools for corporate branding. Nobody calls him out. I don't think this sort of cynicism about LGBT rights activism is helpful. If we want to make progress in this area, we need support from all…

Virtue Signalling is absolutely a thing. Hollow and performative support for an issues that services only to engender the supporter with social points. Supporting Ukraine doesn't bring anyone brownie points because it's not so much a moral position. Corporations 'supporting' BLM, especially with donations, which is a totally corrupt charity - this is a problem. Corporations even throwing up the word 'equity' is a bit…

It would certainly be unfair to accuse Benioff of merely 'hollow and performative' activism, given that his activism achieved actual results:

> Benioff led an effort of business leaders fighting back against [the Religious Freedom Restoration Act], leading to a revised version of the bill being signed into law that prohibited businesses from denying services to someone based on sexual orientation or gender identity

The accusation of virtue signaling is a convenient rhetorical move. It makes it possible to rail against things that no-one likes (hypocrisy and insincerity) rather than against the changes that activists are attempting to bring about – which many people may support.

In reality it doesn't much matter whether someone is an activist out of selfish motives or altruistic ones. That's between them and their conscience. What matters is what they're an activist for, and whether it's a good thing or not.

But perhaps you can clarify this point. Do you really object only to Marc Benioff's (supposed) underlying motives in opposing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Or is it not that you support the Act, and therefore oppose activism against it?

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