Is Firefox Doomed? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#111

Post by Turing_Machine » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 6:24 AM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #96

Turing_Machine wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chrome has an advantage because it's relatively new. It doesn't have to deal with over a decade of add-ons" You'd have a point here if Firefox hadn't started blithely breaking everyone's add-ons by bumping the version number about 5 times per week. Okay, that's hyperbole -- I know it wasn't that often, but the point is that a "rapid release schedule" comes with real costs. If you have 500MM users, and the mean user…

If the cost of frequent updates is breaking add ons that aren't actively maintained, I'm not so sure that's a bad thing. The majority of the slowness criticisms that ff receives seem to be caused by add ons.

It's not unreasonable to expect an add-on to work for more than six weeks, especially when there hasn't actually been any real, significant change in the base software. I'd bet the (unpaid) add-on authors are getting pretty tired of this as well -- they're the ones who have to deal with the emails from unhappy users.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#112

Post by damncabbage » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 6:27 AM UTC

sounds wrote: post #37

rjd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is doomed because its lost its developer foot hold, anecdotally most devs I know refer to it as a joke and use Chrome instead. Its a browser that relies on recommendation to exist, and it no longer is getting recommendation. On a technical note each version isn't really getting any better, historical problems have never been addressed, version fragmentation is occurring, on several matters its in direct confl…

Developer here, and I prefer firefox over chrome.

Same here. I use Chrome as well, but not as much as I do Firefox.

I think the Dev Tools have reached parity, but I often keep groups of tabs open for reference, and Chrome seems to grind to a halt a lot more quickly when used like this.

(To make matters worse, Chrome doesn't seem to "scroll" the list of tabs left and right when the list gets long. It just smooshes them all into one row, leaving you with 10px-wide tabs to click.)

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#113

Post by throwaway64 » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 9:01 AM UTC

dextorious wrote: post #101

rue wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're wrong about plugins so I'll assume that you mean addons here, which use a completely different interface. I personally found Chrome's plugin “API” to be pretty terrible… I use Vimperator on FF, and not only are the Chrome alternatives awfully lacking in functionality, I also need to have enabled JS for them to work. Safe?

""""not only are the Chrome alternatives awfully lacking in functionality, I also need to have enabled JS for them to work""" Yeah, just like 70% of the modern web, and all of Web 2.0. """Safe?""" Enabling JS? Not to tin-foil-hat standards, but yes. You should also remember that Chrome has a special sandbox security model that FF lacks --and that is often found to be the safest browser in security tests, js and all.

i dont have to enable java script on ever page to have my firefox addons work on every page.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#114

Post by bad_user » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 10:05 AM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #103

fferen wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, Chrome basically comes with Firebug by default. I feel that Chrome is similar to Apple products in that it feels restrictive when you first use it (especially with regards to its extension system), but that eventually you realize that you didn't really need those features in the first place. For me those were tree style tabs, as well as the "Awesome bar". The only truly killer feature that Chrome lacks is a rel…

Chrome has its own version of Adblock plus: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cfhdojbkjhnklbpkda... Is it missing something that's in the Firefox version?

There is no comparison.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#115

Post by gkoberger » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 10:06 AM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #79

gkoberger wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a problem with you recommending Chrome (and I work at Mozilla). However, it's not fair to say Firefox is sluggish. With a new profile, it's just as fast as Chrome. Try it. Chrome has an advantage because it's relatively new. It doesn't have to deal with over a decade of add-ons and browser history and cookies. Much like how a computer gets slow and needs to be reformatted, people who are browser power us…

"Chrome has an advantage because it's relatively new. It doesn't have to deal with over a decade of add-ons" You'd have a point here if Firefox hadn't started blithely breaking everyone's add-ons by bumping the version number about 5 times per week. Okay, that's hyperbole -- I know it wasn't that often, but the point is that a "rapid release schedule" comes with real costs. If you have 500MM users, and the mean user…

This is my biggest complaint about Firefox, and I'm a) an add-on developer in my personal time and b) a Mozilla employee who spends 40+ hours a week working on addons.mozilla.org. I swear we're working on fixing it :)

In the meantime, sorry it's been a hassle. I wish we hadn't switched to rapid release without fixing add-on compatibility. We honestly didn't realize how hard it would be to get right.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#116

Post by bad_user » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 10:07 AM UTC

fferen wrote: post #102

michaelcampbell wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not a product that treats me like a dumb user I use both Chrome and FF, and I never felt like a browser was "treating me" like anything. They're both tools. Maybe because I AM a dumb user? ... Oh god.

Plus, Chrome basically comes with Firebug by default. I feel that Chrome is similar to Apple products in that it feels restrictive when you first use it (especially with regards to its extension system), but that eventually you realize that you didn't really need those features in the first place. For me those were tree style tabs, as well as the "Awesome bar". The only truly killer feature that Chrome lacks is a rel…

     Chrome basically comes with Firebug by default

It is not Firebug, but similar functionality that had to be built in. On Firefox, Firebug is just an add-on (which is not possible on Chrome). Plus in my experience of using Firebug, it's just better than whatever Chrome offers. Also on Firefox you've got countless of other plugins to help you out.

IMHO, this is an argument for Firefox, not against it.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#117

Post by gkoberger » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 10:14 AM UTC

toddheasley wrote: post #100

gkoberger wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a problem with you recommending Chrome (and I work at Mozilla). However, it's not fair to say Firefox is sluggish. With a new profile, it's just as fast as Chrome. Try it. Chrome has an advantage because it's relatively new. It doesn't have to deal with over a decade of add-ons and browser history and cookies. Much like how a computer gets slow and needs to be reformatted, people who are browser power us…

> Much like how a computer gets slow and needs to be reformatted, people who are browser power users need to clean out Firefox every few years. Maybe I'm asking to much, but this seems totally unacceptable to me -- both things seem totally unacceptable to me. And while it may still be just true, Firefox suffers worse from this problem than any OS, software or other browser that I use.

Uninstall Firebug, which I'm assuming you have installed. That will fix a majority of your problems.

Mozilla can do nothing about you using Firebug, yet still gets blamed for the slowness.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#118

Post by diminish » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 11:14 AM UTC

abraham wrote: post #110

bad_user wrote: post #61

I'm a developer that switched back to Firefox, after I gave up on it during the 3.5 days. Firefox almost died in its transition to version 4, however now it is back on track. I prefer it over Chrome because Firefox is a platform, not a product that treats me like a dumb user. I use it on my Android too. It's a little sluggish and still uses too much memory, however it has a killer feature - it syncs everything with m…

You might try the mobile nightly. The UI got rewritten as native and should be much faster. Still a little rough last I checked but surprisingly smooth. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Platforms/Android#Download_N...

I am using Firefox since version 0.x and Chrome at the same time, though using Rekonq, Opera, Aurora, Epiphany for various purposes. Mobile web browsing still needs a lot of innovation, and I believe Firefox must stay away from the desktop metaphor and innovate in the mobile version. Here are some ideas for Firefox. http://www.augmentedmadness.com/suggestions-to-improve-mobil... I know Firefox early builds have other better mobile and touch integration.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#119

Post by toddheasley » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 12:51 PM UTC

gkoberger wrote: post #117

toddheasley wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Much like how a computer gets slow and needs to be reformatted, people who are browser power users need to clean out Firefox every few years. Maybe I'm asking to much, but this seems totally unacceptable to me -- both things seem totally unacceptable to me. And while it may still be just true, Firefox suffers worse from this problem than any OS, software or other browser that I use.

Uninstall Firebug, which I'm assuming you have installed. That will fix a majority of your problems. Mozilla can do nothing about you using Firebug, yet still gets blamed for the slowness.

I concede that I'm not being completely fair. I actually don't develop in Firefox and only have a few versions installed on VMs for testing, no bookmarks or extensions. And, as I said in another comment, over the last 10 years, Gecko has become like a trusted friend; I know what will work and don't usually test in Firefox until way later than I should.

I was responding to YOUR stipulation that browsing experience degrades the more you use Firefox. IF it does, that seems like emergency problem #1 to fix if Firefox wants to stop hemmorrhaging users. But then, I'm speaking completely out of turn, since I haven't been a Firefox user for years.

EDIT: ...since I haven't used Firefox as my primary browser in years. I use it daily; not as a "power user."

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#120

Post by baq » Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 2:30 PM UTC

last year ff started to make changes that are becoming visible only now. they lost a lot of users, but are getting better all the time. i've been using chrome exclusively for the past year and now i've got both chrome and ff open.

i guess the biggest feature ff now lacks compared to chrome is the silent autoupdater. it can be optional, just stop asking me for admin rights every time it wants to update.