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The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

chess.com

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Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#421

Post by Maursault »

crystaln wrote: post #20

Seems to be happening in the poker world as well. https://twitter.com/dexerto/status/1575867098328289280

Garrett's behavior indicates narcissistic and/or antisocial personality disorder. He got outplayed by a woman and couldn't handle it happening again, and lashed-out. This is narcissism 101. He accused her of cheating with absolutely no evidence, then proceeded to corner Lew and threaten her off-camera in a dark hallway. This is advanced narcissism. Only after Garrett demanded his money back did Lew offer to return the money. This is extortion. She should have instead charged Garrett with menacing, gotten a restraining order and sued him for slander, but it is understandable she feared for her life and reputation, as many after being threatened have trouble thinking rationally, and she likely just wanted to escape from danger. It's pretty fucked up, and Garrett is a coward that only wins by bullying other players and is also a giant, walking, steaming turd that should be banned from the game.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#422

Post by robertlagrant »

maegul wrote: post #324
rrobukef wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Find-the-cheater tournament. One player is asked to cheat without consequences, the others are aware there is one cheater.

Yes! Had exactly the same thought myself. There's a video of Hikaru Nakamura looking at some of the games identified by this report, and he was admitting that it wasn't immediately obvious to him: the games looked like good games (although I didn't watch the whole video). So such a test of the system almost feels necessary for the chess world to see if they really can tell the difference between high level classical…

Hikaru is the king of sandbagging anything he says. Also, lots of repetition. I dunno. I dunno. Lots of repetition. I think?

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#423

Post by Bakary »

undefinedzero wrote: post #407
_the_inflator wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble I have is, that Hans is 19. Given the accusations and his own confession, he is a life long cheater in contrast to traditional GMs. Hans confessed to have cheated at age 12 and 16. Since cheating is arguable habit forming, he simply based his career on cheating. Where others put in the mileage, he invested in his cheating expertise.

He cheated as a child during a stressful period that children still need to figure out how to deal with. I think it’s very unreasonable to cancel someone over things they did as a child, much less to cancel them IRL over things they did as a child in an online game.

We have evidence of a sustained period of cheating that he then lied about and obfuscated as a legal adult. This is not just a childish mistake. A teenager, in particular a person capable of being a professional chess player, can fully understand the ramifications of these sorts of actions.

What about the stress of the players he's cheated against?

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#424

Post by canes123456 »

cowvin wrote: post #169
erdevs wrote: post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

One of the most interesting (but inconclusive) points they found was how Hans' evaluated strength dropped after they introduced the 15 minute broadcast delay.

Another player decreased by 10 vs 15 for hans. Other players increased by a similar amount to hans. It could easily be noise. Hans under the most public scrutiny and criticism of his life, so you would expect his play to suffer.

I kind of suspect magnus misplayed because he knew that Hans cheated so much online.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#425

Post by Bakary »

ak_111 wrote: post #301
extr wrote: post #241

Talk about a buried lede, I can't believe that they allow caught cheaters to simply reset in rankings and never publicly name them. Can you imagine any other sport operating that way?

Wouldn't it be noticeable if someone got their ranking reset? So others can easily infer who got caught?

People are investigating now, because of the drama. But prior to that there wasn't much in the way of open source analysis

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#426

Post by Bakary »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #267

I love the fact there are so many news about cheating in a sport/game. This suggests the world has no real problems.

If the acuteness of a problem was the determining factor with regards to the attention put on it, the news would be completely different. It would currently be 80% climate change 20% nuclear strike modeling strategy or something similar.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#427

Post by nomagicbullet »

rossdavidh wrote: post #376

So, this is all interesting for chess, but I wonder if we should be discussing more the broader implications. How much does this happen during high-stakes tests (professional qualifications, etc.)? How much does this happen during job interviews? How much does this happen during political debates? How much does this happen during any high-stakes activity where the person is supposed to be thinking through it on their…

What I find interesting about this case are the implications around using what I would call "cognitive augmentation" devices. I can't help to compare this situation with the revolution that's happening with art and ai.

I suspect the organizers of Chess.com are at the beginning of a cat and mouse game that will produce more sophisticated detection algorithms, which in turn will help develop more sophisticated chess engines.

I bet that for lovers of chess, who want to continue to enjoy their passion, this is a critical problem to figure out.

However, can we expect that in games, sports, arts, humans will continue to compete with each other without any forms of artificial aid? Or should we instead explore now what augmenting human's cognition means for our culture? Starting now might be the only way to creating a framework to ensure success (however we want to define it) in the long run.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#428

Post by matai_kolila »

bigbacaloa wrote: post #277
matai_kolila wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rampant online cheating? Hm: > At the outset, we want to make clear that while these events highlight a critical topic in chess—cheating the vast majority of chess games do not involve any cheating. We estimate that fewer than 0.14% of players on Chess.com ever cheat, and that our events are by and large free from cheating. We firmly believe that cheating in chess is rare, preventable, and much less pervasive than is…

How rare is cheating in contexts where there is money at stake? Your average person playing blitz while seated on the toilet has little incentive to cheat, particularly if it involves setting up real time access to a powerful engine ... One expects almost no cheating in such an environment. What if the numbers are: 1/700 cheat, but 1/7 GMs cheat ...?

Professional sports deal with cheating in a number of different ways; suspensions, fines, exclusion from HOF consideration.

Cheating is a part of every competitive thing human beings do, unfortunately. Chess is no different.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#429

Post by thatguy0900 »

undefinedzero wrote: post #407
_the_inflator wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble I have is, that Hans is 19. Given the accusations and his own confession, he is a life long cheater in contrast to traditional GMs. Hans confessed to have cheated at age 12 and 16. Since cheating is arguable habit forming, he simply based his career on cheating. Where others put in the mileage, he invested in his cheating expertise.

He cheated as a child during a stressful period that children still need to figure out how to deal with. I think it’s very unreasonable to cancel someone over things they did as a child, much less to cancel them IRL over things they did as a child in an online game.

Except the only reason we know is because chess.com said so. He hasn't exactly come clean about it, he's been lying about this whole time. It's fair to judge him for his childhood cheating if he is still lying about it as an adult.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#430

Post by hackerlight »

nvarsj wrote: post #382
rossdavidh wrote: post #376

So, this is all interesting for chess, but I wonder if we should be discussing more the broader implications. How much does this happen during high-stakes tests (professional qualifications, etc.)? How much does this happen during job interviews? How much does this happen during political debates? How much does this happen during any high-stakes activity where the person is supposed to be thinking through it on their…

Well, people on blind have admitted to cheating during algo interviews. Not sure how prevalent it is, but a lot of people openly admitted to it. Guess it shouldn’t be surprising given the nature of these interviews and the money at stake. I also know from my time at school, cheating is fairly prevalent there - even at top rated universities. Lots of universities have developed fairly sophisticated statistical tools f…

The literal majority of the class cheated at my college. It was unusual not to cheat.
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