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Is Firefox Doomed?

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Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#61

Post by bad_user »

I'm a developer that switched back to Firefox, after I gave up on it during the 3.5 days. Firefox almost died in its transition to version 4, however now it is back on track.

I prefer it over Chrome because Firefox is a platform, not a product that treats me like a dumb user.

I use it on my Android too. It's a little sluggish and still uses too much memory, however it has a killer feature - it syncs everything with my desktop. It syncs my bookmarks and my saved login data for various websites I use. Saves me from a lot of manual typing and it is so addictive I can't give it up. Plus I'm seeing progress and they've promised a native interface that will be more efficient.

The desktop version is pretty stable these days too - I'm on the Beta channel (version 9) and I don't have problems. Even the versioning problems for the plugins I use have been sorted out.

I still recommend it to people, I would recommend it even to my hypothetical grandma.

If people from Mozilla are reading this - thanks for all your hard work.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#62

Post by ehthere »

jyrkesh wrote: post #8
kijin wrote: post #3

Becoming the #3 browser doesn't make Firefox anywhere near "doomed". It's just back where it was a few years ago, as far as market share is concerned. The desktop and laptop userbase isn't going to disappear anytime soon, either. I don't know much about the search engine partnership issue, but it seems that the author suggested his answer to that. No search service can afford to ignore a browser with over 20% market…

I think the issue here is that Mozilla can't afford to still exist without that 100 million from Google a year. But yeah, I don't see why someone else wouldn't come in and swoop on that.

Bing?

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#63

Post by wycats »

FrankBooth wrote: post #57
rjd wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I replied a little lower down about emotion and opinion and that it in part it isn't mine ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309208 ). But for your specific comments I'll reply. You make 3 comments that I think answer themselves. First statement I imply that things aren't getting better, I'll agree that some things are getting better, new features and support etc... but theres a chunk of stuff not getting…

> First statement I imply that things aren't getting better, I'll agree that some things are getting better, new features and support etc... but theres a chunk of stuff not getting improved. What things that actually matter aren't being improved? You're wrong about plugins so I'll assume that you mean addons here, which use a completely different interface. Addon compatibility over the new release schedule has been r…

"Web SQL DB is a terrible spec, as it stands."

And further, Mozilla championed and gained consensus for IndexedDB (http://www.w3.org/TR/IndexedDB/).

It's simply not true that Mozilla is disengaged or actively hostile to popular standards without presenting a plausible alternative and fighting to make that alternative so.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#64

Post by rjd »

FrankBooth wrote: post #57
rjd wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I replied a little lower down about emotion and opinion and that it in part it isn't mine ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309208 ). But for your specific comments I'll reply. You make 3 comments that I think answer themselves. First statement I imply that things aren't getting better, I'll agree that some things are getting better, new features and support etc... but theres a chunk of stuff not getting…

> First statement I imply that things aren't getting better, I'll agree that some things are getting better, new features and support etc... but theres a chunk of stuff not getting improved. What things that actually matter aren't being improved? You're wrong about plugins so I'll assume that you mean addons here, which use a completely different interface. Addon compatibility over the new release schedule has been r…

TBH I've stopped using FF unless I'm working on a new site, I can't think off the top of my head what isn't working because as stated I don't use it much anymore.

But you don't have to take my word for it, there was a big discussion about it recently: http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/08/29/1454224/Mozilla-Comm...

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#65

Post by bad_user »

redthrowaway wrote: post #55
rjd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For developing I do as well, I think it may be a comfort thing for myself mainly. As far as I'm aware all the tools I use are available on most if not all other browsers. The opinion of people calling it a joke isn't my opinion its what I keep encountering now, and opinions aren't truth, but a exaggerated emotions. So taking that onboard theres a feeling out there amongst a lot of people (although exaggerated) that F…

Again, you're missing the point. It's not about technological advancement (although speed and stability is huge), it's about how many tech-savvy people are recommending it to their mothers and IT managers. By that metric, Firefox is losing ground quickly to Chrome. Chrome is nicer to use and easier to recommend. Yes, those are subjective beliefs, but they're widely-held ones and that's what matters.

     it's about how many tech-savvy people are 
     recommending it to their mothers and 
     IT managers
I know a lot of IT managers that aren't touching Google's products for fear of privacy issues. It's not always rational to think that way, however Google has a trust problem lately - which is also why Google Apps is not as successful as it should be, even though it freaking rocks - the thought that Google reads your emails is a terrifying thought for some.

I'll grant you that for a period of time I also started recommending Chrome - it was before Firefox version 4 got released, as for a moment I lost faith in Mozilla's ability to innovate.

However, now I'm back on Firefox because it is much better for me as a developer. And I also recommend it to normal people because I remember quite well what happened during the IExplorer's glory days and I don't want to help another monopoly on mobile browsers.

To me it is irrelevant if Chrome is better right now (although it isn't) - what is relevant is that I have more trust in Mozilla to guard my interests as a user. Google may be one heck of a company that did a lot of good things for our industry, however their interests do not necessarily align with those of the people.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#66

Post by theshadow »

rjd wrote: post #20
Bo102010 wrote: post #9

Firefox isn't doomed. Not only is it still a good web browser that many (myself included) continue to use daily, inertia will keep it installed on millions of PCs. As far as I know, Mozilla and Google maintain good relations. Even if the deal that provides money from Google to Mozilla isn't renewed, I doubt they will entirely disentangle themselves from each other.

Firefox is doomed because its lost its developer foot hold, anecdotally most devs I know refer to it as a joke and use Chrome instead. Its a browser that relies on recommendation to exist, and it no longer is getting recommendation. On a technical note each version isn't really getting any better, historical problems have never been addressed, version fragmentation is occurring, on several matters its in direct confl…

"anecdotally most devs I know refer to it as a joke and use Chrome instead."

Ahh the world of cargo cult browser fanboyism. All I can say is that the devs you are hanging out with aren't very good, any dev who would write off and "laugh at" a browser which boasts the widest and the most mature array of development tools is probably not very good to begin with.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#67

Post by bad_user »

rjd wrote: post #64
FrankBooth wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First statement I imply that things aren't getting better, I'll agree that some things are getting better, new features and support etc... but theres a chunk of stuff not getting improved. What things that actually matter aren't being improved? You're wrong about plugins so I'll assume that you mean addons here, which use a completely different interface. Addon compatibility over the new release schedule has been r…

TBH I've stopped using FF unless I'm working on a new site, I can't think off the top of my head what isn't working because as stated I don't use it much anymore. But you don't have to take my word for it, there was a big discussion about it recently: http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/08/29/1454224/Mozilla-Comm...

So basically you don't know what you're talking about and you're providing Slashdot as a reference?

Also, if such discussions are possible is because Mozilla's development model is in the open, which means all of their dirty underwear is washed in public, although ultimately this is for the greater good. The same thing happens inside companies like Google or Apple, you just never hear about it.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#68

Post by mattmanser »

gkoberger wrote: post #56
mattmanser wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not addressing his key point, I'm recommending Chrome to anyone I speak to, many other developers I know are too. Firefox is slow, sluggish to use and confusing compared to Chrome. The edge it had over IE was that it was a better user experience. It's not compared to Chrome anymore. Even IE is better than FF apart from the weird crash like blank screen glitch when opening a new tab that IE has.

I don't have a problem with you recommending Chrome (and I work at Mozilla). However, it's not fair to say Firefox is sluggish. With a new profile, it's just as fast as Chrome. Try it. Chrome has an advantage because it's relatively new. It doesn't have to deal with over a decade of add-ons and browser history and cookies. Much like how a computer gets slow and needs to be reformatted, people who are browser power us…

Yeah, you're right, I didn't realise they'd improved it so. Start up was really suffering at one point, it's nippy, I'm wrong.

I think the major reason this myth has stayed in my mind is doing upgrades on startup, testing FF v Chrome just now, on a computer that FF has never been the primary browser, they're very similar in terms of responsiveness (FF still a little slower if I'm honest, but trivially and I think it's a bit psychological in the way it opens the window compared to Chrome). I'm not seeing major differences on disabling/enabling firebug though.

Right now every time I open FF it seems to upgrade, because I do it so rarely. So in my mind it's now become intolerably slow and I only open it when I really, really need 3 different sessions on a single site. I use Chrome as primary, IE secondary (due to it being more likely to have quirks and historically preferring IE dev toolbar to firebug).

As Chrome upgrades in the background and IE does it through windows update you're not playing on a fair playing field I guess.

EDIT: I should add this isn't exactly a modern computer, no SSD, 2.4ghz quad core, 3Gb RAM and my laptop's even more in need of an upgrade.

Re: Is Firefox Doomed?

#70

Post by rjd »

bad_user wrote: post #67
rjd wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I've stopped using FF unless I'm working on a new site, I can't think off the top of my head what isn't working because as stated I don't use it much anymore. But you don't have to take my word for it, there was a big discussion about it recently: http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/08/29/1454224/Mozilla-Comm...

So basically you don't know what you're talking about and you're providing Slashdot as a reference? Also, if such discussions are possible is because Mozilla's development model is in the open, which means all of their dirty underwear is washed in public, although ultimately this is for the greater good. The same thing happens inside companies like Google or Apple, you just never hear about it.

No I don't have time to get drawn into what is essentially a nit picking argument and will probably end up circular in nature. I'm sure what would take me 30 minutes to dredge up and to get valid points to back me up can all be found in that link.
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