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Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

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Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#191

Post by lamontcg »

JoshGlazebrook wrote: post #3

“In the near future, once these features achieve performance parity to today’s vehicles” Right... like how vision vehicles have parity with autopilot speeds and following distance? Oh wait they don't. Vision-only vehicles are still limited to a max of 85mph and 2 car minimum following distance for autosteer while radar is 90mph and 1 car following distance. Texas has 85mph highways. The two car following distance con…

> The two car following distance constantly leads to cars cutting in-between you and the car in front of you because the gap is so large.

stop caring about this.

its like a neon sign saying that you're an unsafe driver.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#192

Post by Noujin »

cma wrote: post #125
aeternum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the removal of radar, they showed some pretty convincing data that the radar was too noisy to be useful, especially with discriminating things like highway overpasses vs. stopped cars. They showed that vision could already outperform radar. With these parking sensors it's different. They have no current alternative and it will cause a pretty significant loss of functionality. Disappointing move.

More data shouldn't actually hurt, it can be use as bayesian prior on the camera data when the vision stuff is uncertain if nothing else.

But that’s the thing. Tesla wasn’t able to tell when the radar was “uncertain”. So when do you trust one data source more than the other? If it was so easy to label misinformation as such, the misinformation would probably not have been communicated in the first place. Tesla explained this at AI day 1.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#193

Post by hef19898 »

jaimex2 wrote: post #170
justapassenger wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vision also gives you unreliable output. Real world is messy and hard - sensor fusion and dealing with unreliable data is bread and butter. No one said it’s easy to build that stuff. Well, no one expect for Elon Musk to be more precise.

That last thing you want is two systems arguing about what they see. Also its lame to downvote for disagreeing.

Like MCAS and the 737 MAX? That system didn't argue with itself neither.

EDIT: Downvoting for disagreeing is fine, according to pg himself.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#194

Post by kgc »

bink wrote: post #128
eclipxe wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The camera ensures you are paying attention with using Autopilot or FSD. For example if you pick up your phone, it will alert you to pay attention and eventually shut off.

I own a 2019 model 3 and the last I heard was that they couldn't use those cameras for monitoring a driver's attention because they were intended for monitoring the cabin when you "rented out" your FSD vehicle, so they aren't aimed at the driver. Have they changed the orientation since then?

2018 models do monitor the driver so yours should too when on FSD.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#195

Post by hef19898 »

dagmx wrote: post #75
m463 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parking sensors on the Tesla are really good and very useful. I respectfully disagree. I think their primary use case is parking. Tesla does a really good job with automatic parking, and it IS useful especially for parallel parking. But honestly, I have curbed my rims and hung up my underbody front spoiler on a curb and they did not help. Really there is an opportunity for cameras to protect the car from nearby…

Tesla is probably the WORST at automatic parking. Here’s a comparison against some other competitors. https://youtu.be/nsb2XBAIWyA My own model Y has maybe successfully automatically parked 2/10 times. Most of my friends and coworkers have similarly low success rates.

If yo are that bad in parallel parking, you don't pass your drivers test in Germany.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#196

Post by fredoliveira »

panick21_ wrote: post #189
STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it Tesla Vision outperformed Tesla with Radar in the official tests.

I guess I'll do the obvious and ask for a source.

I saw the Tesla Vision keynote from Karpathy, if that's what you mean. Wouldn't call that a source for "official" tests.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#197

Post by Daneel_ »

Qworg wrote: post #62
aeternum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the removal of radar, they showed some pretty convincing data that the radar was too noisy to be useful, especially with discriminating things like highway overpasses vs. stopped cars. They showed that vision could already outperform radar. With these parking sensors it's different. They have no current alternative and it will cause a pretty significant loss of functionality. Disappointing move.

I'd love to see the convincing data RE: radar - they're using the same radars as every other car that has emergency braking from the car in front of the car that's in front of you. I've not heard of many "phantom braking" sessions from these other vehicles - I may have missed something.

Allow me to take you for a drive in my Volvo V90. I turned the auto-braking feature off entirely because it spits false positives like crazy. Parked cars, signs, birds, cars travelling through roundabouts across my nose, nothing at all - they all trigger it, and the car stomps the brakes extremely hard. The 2017 VW Golf it replaced was FAR better - maybe two false positives in 5 years. The Volvo? Daily.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#198

Post by cma »

Noujin wrote: post #192
cma wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More data shouldn't actually hurt, it can be use as bayesian prior on the camera data when the vision stuff is uncertain if nothing else.

But that’s the thing. Tesla wasn’t able to tell when the radar was “uncertain”. So when do you trust one data source more than the other? If it was so easy to label misinformation as such, the misinformation would probably not have been communicated in the first place. Tesla explained this at AI day 1.

If the vision stack is just below its certainty threshold that a car is coming across at 63mph at some angle and can't quite decide to take action on its own, and at the same time radar indicates a car is coming across at the predicted angle and speed, it should push it over the threshold, even if it might get false positives from overhead bridge traffic Lining up with the vision estimate makes that less likely, and the vision stack itself can also be used to exclude data that might be from an overhead bridge by detecting that there is no bridge nearby.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#199

Post by theshrike79 »

I read this Somewhere(tm), if anyone can confirm it I'd be grateful:

The issue with Tesla's camera only neural network thing is that it needs a TON of cycles to determine the distance of every point in the image.

With LIDAR, for example, you get the direction and distance in the same datapoint without any extra calculation.

And the current generation of Tesla cars are operating pretty much at the limit of their power and will run out of resources unless Tesla manages to do some crazy optimisations on their detection algorithms/neural network training.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#200

Post by chinathrow »

atonse wrote: post #43

I have had a model 3 for four years and the autopilot has steadily gotten worse. In summer 2019 we went on a road trip that was 10 hours of total driving (each way), where I actually drove for maybe 30 mins total. It was flawless and downright magical. Since then we often have the car slam brakes out of the blue (once waking up my sleeping family and causing both kids to cry), and a few other times. I have lost trust…

> Since then we often have the car slam brakes out of the blue (once waking up my sleeping family and causing both kids to cry), and a few other times.

And you still drive this car today? In the same mode?

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