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Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

globalpolicyjournal.com

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Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#141

Post by asdff »

otikik wrote: post #51
verdverm wrote: post #2

Didn't Europe cut down most of it's forests before capitalism had a name? Are communist systems much different in their treatment of nature? This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism

The cutting of most European forests happened very recently, in the time between the start of industrial revolution and the creation of natural reserves and national parks.

This depends on where in europe. The various sea powers that were over history stripped plenty of islands and coastal Mediterranean areas bare of their forests for the sake of building ships that went on to rot in the sea. Roman sources tell of crops that were harvested to the point of extinction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#142

Post by asdff »

verdverm wrote: post #2

Didn't Europe cut down most of it's forests before capitalism had a name? Are communist systems much different in their treatment of nature? This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism

Its not a problem but a fact of life. Symbiotic relationships are most commonly parasitic. It takes a lot of evolutionary fine tuning for a mutually beneficial system to emerge. Plenty of things have gone extinct over the course of life due to other species doing. Perhaps the worst event was the great oxygenation event, when photosynthetic life emerged and polluted the earth with oxygen to the point of mass extinction of the previously dominant anaerobic life forms.

We humans are no different than what came before. We are a parasite to most species we rely upon. We pollute the air to the point that it harms other species much like earlier forms of life have done. Solving this 'problem' for good will amount to an evolutionary change in our species. I say problem in quotes because its only a problem for humans and any of the current crop of species making up the biomass on earth who are harmed by our actions. Extinction exposes opportunities for other phenotypes or species to take advantage of the earths resources at least. One thing that is certain is that life on earth moves on as always.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#143

Post by auxbuss »

_8j50 wrote: post #26

Hear me out: "Climate change" is a terrible phrase, of course climate changes, when talking to regular people that's like saying "water flow" to describe flooding. "Climate destabilization" or something akin to that would communicate what is happening better to the people that vote.

Climate breakdown is commonly used in the UK.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#144

Post by chaostheory »

epistasis wrote: post #138
chaostheory wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no denying that capitalism is “grow or die”, but so is socialism. Like capitalism, socialism needs working adults to outnumber both retired seniors and non working age children. The only way socialism can avoid the constant growth requirement is if they have a “you only eat if you work” rule. Historically, socialism’s rate of pollution is on par with capitalism

> There’s no denying that capitalism is “grow or die”, but so is socialism. I think it's important to specify about what individual components "grow-or-die" here, because I'm having trouble agreeing that capitalism or socialism, as systems, are such. Individual entities in capitalism, embodied in the concept of the firm, are not necessarily grow-or-die. A growing firm has a much easier life, as there is more slack in…

Your argument is not accounting for factors such as inflation, fiat, and leverage to name a few. No one is going to invest in anything that doesn’t have a decent ROI

> Many of China's problems stem from inadequate retirement distribution, despite supposedly being a socialist or communist country.

China hasn’t been socialist for decades now. I’m not even sure what your point is. It has “inadequate” retirement distribution because

1. It’s a drag on the economy and growth

2. Like nearly every other country, China has a demographic problem: the proportion of the retired elderly vs the taxable, working population is not sustainable ie there are too many elderly people who are not contributing to both the economy and tax revenue

> The question of how the retired class of people eats, and how to distribute resources between younger workers and elder retirees is solvable in many ways, under socialism and under capitalism.

I feel that describing the so called “solutions” is important here instead of assuming that it will magically automatically just intuitively work. It’s not an easy or straightforward problem to solve

This is only a pointless discussion for people who lack enough knowledge of both history and economics

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#145

Post by t0bia_s »

_8j50 wrote: post #118
t0bia_s wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Propaganda never works.

Umm... it works very well on most people, that's why i lt exists. If you doubt this, examine your own beliefs and look for propaganda.

It works temporarily. I prefer education.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#146

Post by civilized »

Schroedingersat wrote: post #135
civilized wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mainstream developed country view is to regulate capitalism and have government fund big bets and basic research, not dismiss capitalism as fundamentally incompatible with everything we're supposed to value.

This is a motte and bailey argument. "Only capatalist countries can stop climate change and they can do it by being not-capitalist just long enough to stem the bleeding" The solution by your own words is to have less capitalism. Which is what everyone else is arguing for.

If anything, the motte-and-bailey shoe seems to be on the other foot from my end. You claim capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with many aspects of human flourishing, then provide as evidence countries which are widely thought to be capitalist (and think of themselves as capitalist), but regulate the capitalism.

I don't know if there's a meaningful, concrete difference of views worth discussing here anymore. We both agree capitalism should be regulated and can't make the biggest, riskiest investments society needs.

Maybe we could put it this way - is capitalism like arsenic, a useless toxin that the human body shouldn't be exposed to, or is it like iron, something that can be poisonous in excess but also serves a critical function?

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#147

Post by [deleted] »

epistasis wrote: post #136
amelius wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what else is grow-or-die? Life itself. All of life is a series of exponential growth, followed by slower growth. It's all logistic curves. Isn't that true in pathological cases only? Like when a bacterium takes over an entire petri dish? In balanced ecosystems, I don't think what you say holds (there may be logistic curves but it's not one species that takes over the entire habitat). In contrast, in capita…

All of life is ever changing, there is no stable ecosystem except in a moment, and only if you ignore the parts that are undergoing massive death after massive growth. Calling bacteria in a Petri dish "pathological" doesn't even make sense, it is the way of life, how life grows all over. Disease and escape from disease are omni-present in biology, not mere pathology. Ever present extinction of species, ever present e…

[deleted]

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#148

Post by Schroedingersat »

civilized wrote: post #146
Schroedingersat wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a motte and bailey argument. "Only capatalist countries can stop climate change and they can do it by being not-capitalist just long enough to stem the bleeding" The solution by your own words is to have less capitalism. Which is what everyone else is arguing for.

If anything, the motte-and-bailey shoe seems to be on the other foot from my end. You claim capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with many aspects of human flourishing, then provide as evidence countries which are widely thought to be capitalist (and think of themselves as capitalist), but regulate the capitalism. I don't know if there's a meaningful, concrete difference of views worth discussing here anymore. We…

That would be a valid analogy if it wasn't self-reenforcing to the point where it destroys whatever mechanism of regulation you have, and if any limitations on it weren't attacked by comparing them to failed state capitalist or fascist states and attributing everything good that happend under or in spite of it to capitalism.

The broken part is assigning power to power. This has an identical outcome whether you call the nexus of power money or favour of the people's party.

Sufficiently regulated capitalism is less like a modern neoliberal system than the USSR or a totalitarian regime.

There's no evidence it has done any good that doesn't follow from any other type of industrialisation or access to the fruits of science (it may), but there are a great number of problems it does cause and a number of problems it is fundamentally unsuited for. So more like ethanol -- might do some good, but definitely does a lot of harm if you have too much.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#149

Post by otikik »

jshen wrote: post #127
otikik wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you hunted in the King’s forest, they chopped your head off. That’s a clear consequence of consumption.

That’s not about consumption, it’s about property rights.

Well maybe we should modify property rights so that they include externalities.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#150

Post by otikik »

datadata wrote: post #53
otikik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if all the nations do it together.

Sure, but that is not a stable solution. Defection is rewarded.

So we need a reward (or a punishment) that is perceived as bigger than defection.
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