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The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

chess.com

221–230 of 486 posts

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#221

I think the thing I'd like to have clarified: Why does chess.com care about the results of an OTB game? I can understand their online tournaments being something they care about and why they might rescind an invitation based on these allegations but there's something very strange about them taking it upon themselves to ban him from the platform as a result of his play against someone whose company they're in the proc…

This is my general take on it. As I posted on Twitter:

As one example, chess.com thinks it’s suspicious that Hans became a grandmaster at 17 instead of a younger age (page 15 of the report), but keep in mind that the legendary Joseph Henry Blackburne didn’t learn to even how to play chess until he was 17. More recently, world champion #15 Vishy Anand did not become a grandmaster until he was 18.

Point being, it argues like a polemic, not a fact-finding report. They themselves admit this. On page 19: “Chess.com is unaware of any concrete evidence proving that Hans is cheating over the board or has ever cheated over the board”.

My personal hurdle, which has not changed in the last month, is real evidence of online cheating on or after June 20, 2021 (Hans’s 18th birthday), or real evidence of over the board cheating. Understating the extent of his online cheating in his September 6 speech is not evidence of recent cheating. I don’t like it, but it might not even be deliberate lying, but a combination of a foggy memory and nerves.

Regardless, while apparently guilty of online cheating when he was 17 or younger, and possibly guilty of understating the extent of his juvenile delinquency, I see no need to ban him from playing over the board chess with the evidence we have on the table. To ban someone as an adult for something done while a juvenile is generally considered immoral, and to ban someone without solid evidence is also considered immoral. This is a line I draw in the sand and will hold to.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#222
post #170
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting. Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). This is a major scandal that s…

Totally fair ... and it would make a lot of sense that this event brings about some sort of cultural cleansing or realignment. I guess I really just meant "dead to me." That being said, if it turns out that online chess continues to do well, but there's still plenty of cheating going on, I don't think it'd be accurate to say online chess is alive because it wouldn't be chess but something different, for better or wor…

Just look at Magnus Carlsen's performance in the most recent online chess event.

https://chess24.com/tour/standings/ (Prelim standings / Knockout Bracket).

Online chess is alive and well.

The whole "so many top players caught cheating" is a bit much. None of the very best are cheating.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#223
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> He seemed a bit on the spectrum and oversharing, literally hyperventilating and not talking in coherent sentences. Yeah, not really. He's 19 and is a non-native English speaker. He understands that he's under siege and has to show some vulnerability to gain trust in listeners. IMO, the way he spoke was completely in accordance with all of this, while also remaining coherent.

He's a native speaker, just spent too much time around people with broken English recently.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#224
post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

> Tangentially, this induces an obvious concern about cheat and cheat-detection arms races.

This exists in every domain, and is - perhaps - inevitable. Look at what SEO has done to web search.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#225
post #108
post #38

“Our investigation has revealed that while there has been some noteworthy online play that has caught our attention as suspicious since August 2020, we are unaware of any evidence that Hans has engaged in online cheating since then.” So he was re-banned for absolutely no reason. He kept his side of the deal, i.e. not cheat again on chess.com platform. Chess.com didn’t keep theirs.

No...they seem willing to provide evidence that he has cheated more times than he admitted. He did NOT keep his side of the deal

Where did you read that in the document?

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#226
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > The conventional wisdom is that if you are not a GM by age 14, it is unlikely that you can reach the top levels of chess. This is confusing correlation and causation. One thing that people don't realize is the sheer amount of money required to become a "GM". You have to get a certain number of "norms" from FIDE and the requirements list is a PITA: https://chessgoals.com/how-to-get-a-grandmaster-norm/ If you don't…

This also ignores a once in a century pandemic. It’s an absolutely ridiculous basis to make a claim.

> This also ignores a once in a century pandemic.

Hans Niemann was almost 17 years old when the pandemic started. When he turned 15 (June 2018) his rating was 2313, almost 200 points (an immense gulf at that level) below the minimum to become a grandmaster.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone not following this I'll save you some time with the TL;DR: Hustler Casino livestreams a regular game with High Stakes Poker. A new player who is also a wealthy model wife type made a call against a pro that sucked out where her decision making was baffling. Off camera but on mic the pro demanded his money back. Then it blew up into a giant drama of accused cheating. Here's my read on what happened: this wo…

From personal experience, there’s nothing “good” poker players hate more than losing to a “bad” poker player who “shouldn’t have even been in the band.”

This happens almost everywhere.

There's some advice about never being better than your boss, particularly in public.

I despise it, btw.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#228
post #19

> The conventional wisdom is that if you are not a GM by age 14, it is unlikely that you can reach the top levels of chess. > While that statement may seem discouraging, it has been borne out in modern chess. > Greats like Fischer, Kasparov, Carlsen, and almost all of the modern GMs who have been established as top five players, were notable GMs by age 15 at the latest Wow.

Most of the sports starts tend to start very very young. Some more true than others, like how most ice skating Olympic winners are sub 18. More true for classical music as well.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#229
post #174
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting. Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). This is a major scandal that s…

>>Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). I think it's the other way, chess is about as easy to cheat as it gets. With chess you can have a perfectly usable cheating system that isn't on the same computer at all - computer A is clean, and is where you actually play on chess.com, computer B is where you ent…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#230
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally fair ... and it would make a lot of sense that this event brings about some sort of cultural cleansing or realignment. I guess I really just meant "dead to me." That being said, if it turns out that online chess continues to do well, but there's still plenty of cheating going on, I don't think it'd be accurate to say online chess is alive because it wouldn't be chess but something different, for better or wor…

Just look at Magnus Carlsen's performance in the most recent online chess event. https://chess24.com/tour/standings/ (Prelim standings / Knockout Bracket). Online chess is alive and well. The whole "so many top players caught cheating" is a bit much. None of the very best are cheating.

Well, none are getting caught cheating.
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